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Can you help me translate something?
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mohammed3rd
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:06 am    Post subject: Can you help me translate something? Reply with quote

hello and peace,

I would like you to help me please in understanding some hieroglyphic text, but before I show the text I beg you not let your personal judgment on me or my faith interfere, I did not come here to prove anything nor to convert anyone. I am a truth seeker and I engaged a debate with another muslim who firmly believes that "haman" a man described in the muslim text "Quran" as minister or companion to the pharaoh is mentioned in the hieroglyphic texts.

Now after checking the evidences that he showed me I am still not 100% sure of this claim especially when I find other ppl discrediting those claims but they also are not experts on this, so I looked and I looked but could not find something that would positively affirm either of the claims, and I always make sure to do my best in before believing in something and your forum is the best I was able to find to help me with this.

Now here is the text which I would like you to help me with.



does the above text sounds "aman" or anything close to it? Is there a site where I can find out how its was pronounced? Or is it still debatable? If it is still so how far from the truth would someone be if he claimed that this sounds "aman or haman or amaan"

http://www.kalemasawaa.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=959&stc=1&d=1307427919

now I can see here that the previous text is also in here plus some additional text, does the above text mean chief of stoneworkers or stonecutters?

The words translating the text in the image above are in German but I could not get the second word, it says stein which means "stone" but I'm just not that sure.

If it actually means that the name in the 1st image was some sort of stonecutting chief then how come some ppl claim that he is some sort of a god?

One last thing if you don’t mind, there is a book called Pharaoh Triumphant: The Life and Times of Ramesses II, King of Egypt by Kenneth kitchen, and in this book he states that there is a character whose name was "Amen em inet" kitchen says that Amen was a companion of Ramesses II since childhood and he climbed the ranks until he reached the rank of "minister of industry" or so.

I can not find the book text so is this true? And can this Amen be the one in the 1st image?

That is all I am looking for, and I beg you again not mix your judgment with what you think of religion or god, I'm just looking for an expert judgment on this.

Thank you and peace.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The Haman Hoax" by Jochen Katz

Greetings, Lutz.
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mohammed3rd
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately that does not help me much because:

1) that site is blocked I can not visit it.

2) Jochen Katz is kind-of known to me and I saw many of his arguments refuted.

3) he is exactly what I begged you not to be, he is mainly addressing matters such as this just to prove that his "enemy" is wrong and that he is telling the truth which discredit his views in my opinion.

as I've stated before I dont want to involve religion in this discussion, I want an answer for my questions regardless of my background.

I am not looking for someone to say "wow this amazing this the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth I wanna join in on this religion of yours" I just want an "expert" opinion on this matter.

Thank you.
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Segereh
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mohammed3rd wrote:
as I've stated before I dont want to involve religion in this discussion,
I want an answer for my questions regardless of my background.

Your mention of your background is so far the only religious element in this discussion. Wink
Do I understand it correctly that your question is about that name "Haman" and if/how it could be based on a genuine Ancient Egyptian name?
Just asking to make sure.
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mohammed3rd
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Segereh wrote:
mohammed3rd wrote:
as I've stated before I dont want to involve religion in this discussion,
I want an answer for my questions regardless of my background.

Your mention of your background is so far the only religious element in this discussion. Wink
Do I understand it correctly that your question is about that name "Haman" and if/how it could be based on a genuine Ancient Egyptian name?
Just asking to make sure.


well as you can see Mr Lutz redirected me to a christian site which specializes in attacking the islamic faith and I think that THIS is an answer based on my background which is exactly what I was afraid to get.

and my question simply is, what does the name sounds like in 1st image? as accurate as you can make it PLZ, and the 2nd image is already translated -I think!- in german but I did not get the second word because the handwriting is difficult for me, it says something about chief of stonecutters or something like that, AM I CORRECT?

also the site which Lutz have directed me to visit claims that the name in the 1st image refers to some sort of a god rather than a person, then how come he is a chief of the stonecutters? because the text in the 1st image is visible in the 2nd one also.

Thank you and I appreciate your attention, please help me.
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the link you gave, Amun is indeed mentioned. The German text gives the source of the information as Sethe (Kurt), Urkunden. it also mentions quarry work of some description (!)

steinbrucharbeiten = "quarry work"

vorstehen der steinbrucharbeiten = "quarry work of the project"(Lutz?)


The name of the man is not "Haman" In fact the small fragment of text you highlighted (one of 3 sections of text) does not have the man determanitive.

Quote:
If it actually means that the name in the 1st image was some sort of stonecutting chief then how come some ppl claim that he is some sort of a god?


More than likely is was the Quarry of Amun, or the were quarrying stone to work on a monument to Amun.

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mohammed3rd
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much good sir Styler78

you've helped me with second word however if you can please go back to link the 1st word is clearly "Vorsteher" and not "vorstehen" the last letter is an R not an N, am I right?

now I used google translator and there is big difference bitween the two words

vorstehen = protrude AND vorstehen der steinbrucharbeiten = quarry work of the project


Vorsteher = head AND Vorsteher der steinbrucharbeiten = Head of the quarry work

so the problem still exist here yes? how can Amun be the "head" of the quraay work?

Thank you again
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mohammed3rd
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I just noticed another thing, now what if the words in german are three rather than two? there is a clear space between the H and a so its like this

Vorsteher der steinbruch arbeiten = Superintendent of the quarry work
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mohammed3rd
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I know I'm kind of being annoying right bow but I also foun this after rechecking for 100th time.

it is vorsteher der steinbruch arbeiteR rather than vorsteher der steinbruch arbeiteN

vorsteher der steinbruch arbeiter = superintendent of the quarry workers
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took a look at the following glyphs:



In my opinion whoever did the color coding, did it correctly. What I see is a fairly straight-forward translation:

imy-r ik(w) n imn Hmn-H
"Overseer of the stone quarry of Amun, Hemen-he."

The purple shading encloses the man's title: imy-r ik(w), "Overseer of the stone quarry..."

The blue shading encloses the possessor of the quarry: n imn, "of Amun" (meaning the temple of Amun, of course).

The yellow shading encloses the man's name: Hmn-H, "Hemen-he."

The name is the only thing that confuses me. It's unusual. It could just as easily be transliterated Hmn-Hw, I think. The article to which Lutz linked us mentions the possibility the name is an abbreviation, which is certainly possible.

As for your query, mohammed3rd, I don't know how confident I would be in trying to equate Hemen-he with the Haman of the Quran. We don't know the vowel sounds of the name, so our using an "e" here or an "a" there is an entirely artificial construct on our part. As far as we know a vowel may have preceded or followed the name, too. Hieroglyphs do not preserve pure vowel sounds, so much of the actual ancient pronunciation of names and words is forever lost to us. Until someone invents a time machine.

I for one have no problem with posts in which members search out possible facts or fictions with the Old Testament or Bible or Quran. I've done plenty of writing on that score, myself. I find it interesting to work through these puzzles. I admit to being something of a minimalist in such pursuits and to approaching such research from a strictly secular point of view, but that's me.

The fact that you're Muslim is no more relevant to the discussion than the fact that I'm Roman Catholic or the fact that someone else might be Jewish. All I, as Moderator, require is that all who take part in the discussion remain considerate, civil, and level headed.

Also bear in mind, mohammed3rd, that if the man in question really was called Haman in life, it doesn't really mean anything. He's unlikely to have been the only man in the ancient Near East who went by that name. Plenty of instances of the Semitic name Yacob, for instance, were known among Canaanites in times pre-existing the Hebrews, so we needn't equate an ancient man named Yacob with the biblical Joseph (I've seen plenty of people fall pray to this, which is why I mention it).

Finally, I'm not familiar with the Quran's story of Haman, but the man whom we're analyzing was quite unlikely to have been a minister or companion of the pharaoh. He oversaw operations of a quarry owned by the temple of Amun, which, if anything, implies he was more tied into the temple administration than to the court. And he was unlikely to have been of the station of a minister or confidant of the king, unless other extant titles and epithets for this man clearly say as much (and they would, if such exists).

I hope my post is of some assistance. Smile
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mohammed3rd
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cannot emphasize how grateful I am to your incite on this matter sir.


Quote:
He oversaw operations of a quarry owned by the temple of Amun


And that is why I asked if there could be a possibility that he is the same person mentioned in Kitches book who raised through the ranks, we cannot deny completely that this person who was a construction worker of some sort became a minister unless we have something solid to base this on, alas we cannot also guarantee that he became something other than a simple supervisor.

Do you have any knowledge of that book?
Pharaoh Triumphant: The Life and Times of Ramesses II, King of Egypt by Kenneth kitchen.

Which mentions the name Amen em inet who rose through the ranks passing through overseeing construction of monuments all the way to being some sort of minister of manufacture plus the fact that he was very close to Ramses II?

Thank you again.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To clarify, I have posted the link just as representation of the source material. The author of this page offers latter completely, some in reproduction. With his interpretation one can agree, but one must not, of course. Basically, for my part I have problems with all self-styled warriors of the so-called monotheistic world religions. This does not mean that one, if only for simplicity's sake, can use their sources and documents ... Here, for example, a slightly larger copy of Ranke, with accompanying footnotes :



Here it is getting clear that Ranke thinks it is a short form of a name, with clear reference to the ancient Egyptian god "Hemen" (/ Haman / Homon / Himin / ...). As he was pronounced, we can not really reconstruct. As kmt_sesh has already explained, the reconstruction is a construct of modern linguistics, based mostly on Coptic and cuneiform texts.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Styler78
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you to Kmt- Sesh and Lutz.

Both of you will have noticed my fumblings and have answered the initially queries so much better than i.

Although i know that amateurs such as myself should steer clear of translations - i wanted to at least have a go- to move the subject on.

Thanks for your explanations of the glyphs- very useful indeed

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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mohammed3rd wrote:
Ok I know I'm kind of being annoying right bow but I also foun this after rechecking for 100th time.

it is vorsteher der steinbruch arbeiteR rather than vorsteher der steinbruch arbeiteN

vorsteher der steinbruch arbeiter = superintendent of the quarry workers

The title is: jm.j-rA-jk.y
Vorsteher der Steinbrucharbeiter - Overseer of quarrymen
Vorsteher der Steinmetze - overseer of the stoneworkers (Ward*, n° 50)

* William A. Ward: Index of Egyptian administrative and religious titles of the Middle Kingdom: With a glossary of words and phrases used. American University of Beirut, Beirut 1982
(Source: TLA)

Here you can see the original inscription in question on the pillar of a tomb door (Nr. 91 "Pfeiler einer Grabtür"), KHM Vienna:



I wish you could read this publication with statements by renovened experts in Egyptology.

Aset
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mohammed3rd wrote:
I cannot emphasize how grateful I am to your incite on this matter sir.


Quote:
He oversaw operations of a quarry owned by the temple of Amun


And that is why I asked if there could be a possibility that he is the same person mentioned in Kitches book who raised through the ranks, we cannot deny completely that this person who was a construction worker of some sort became a minister unless we have something solid to base this on, alas we cannot also guarantee that he became something other than a simple supervisor.

Do you have any knowledge of that book?
Pharaoh Triumphant: The Life and Times of Ramesses II, King of Egypt by Kenneth kitchen.

Which mentions the name Amen em inet who rose through the ranks passing through overseeing construction of monuments all the way to being some sort of minister of manufacture plus the fact that he was very close to Ramses II?

Thank you again.


Make sure to see Aset's post on the polishing of my translation. I defer to her. My "Overseer of the stone quarry..." is better phrased as "Overseer of the stoneworkers...," per Aset's translation.

As to your most recent question, unfortunately I do not own a copy of that particular book by kitchen. I must ask you the question, then, if kitchen specifies the name of this man as "Amen-em-inet" and not "Hmn-H" or some derivation? I ask because the name Amen-em-inet was pretty common. We even have a granite sarcophagus in our gallery at the Field inscribed for a courtier by this name (the sarcophagus probably dates to Dynasty 19, but at what specific point in that dynasty, I am not equipped to say).

The name Amen-em-inet is spelled very differently from Hmn-H so I'm comfortable in saying these would be two different men.

-----------------------------------------------

Aset: On a somewhat different but related note: Damn, leave it to you to come up with the actual monument and its inscription. Impressive! notworthy

I tried to download your PDF to see if I could work through some of the German, but I could neither save it to my desktop nor copy and paste from it.
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