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what if Ankhesenpaaten Tasherit married Tut instead?
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:57 pm    Post subject: Re: WHAT! Reply with quote

EgyptianRose wrote:
Shocked I am extremely confused! I thought it was pretty well known that King tut married Ankhesenpaaten/Ankhesenamun the daughter of Neferteti and Akhenaten! Not Akhesenpaaten-Tasherit?

You are correct Smile
This thread started as speculation and a simple question: Could the queen be the junior Ankhesenpaaten instead of the senior.
Lutz is correct: there is no evidence whatsoever that Tut's wife was anyone other than the third daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.

So is it possible? I think maybe. But a lot of strange things would have to line up. The palimpsest mentioning the girls would actually have to refer to actual daughters of Ankhesenpaaten and Meritaten. Then they would have to survive to marry. Then they would have to be appropriate choices; indicating other older female royals have likely died etc.

Is it likely? Not very in my personal opinion.
LOL I would not put it in the extra-terrestial category as Lutz does, but I personally think the identification of Ankhesenamun as the dau of Akhenaten and Nefertiti is the most likely one. (And most likely here means something like 99.9% certain as a rough guess)

EgyptianRose wrote:
I thought Ankhesenpaaten-Tasherit and Meritaten-Tasherit were considered to be children of Meritaten and Smenkhkare (If they even existed) or better yet the names of the two still born babies of Tutankhamun and Ankhesenamun (If that's even possible?)?

As Lutz mentioned, it's not even clear if they really existed because they only appear in scenes adapted from earlier ones and nowhere else.

If they did exist then it is not clear who the father would have been.
I thought they was usually seen as the daughter of the marriage by Akhenaten to his daughters Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten.

EgyptianRose wrote:
I never thought or ever seen it suggested anywhere that Ankhesenpaaten-Tasherit married King Tutankhamun!? Idea

I have seen the speculation on that before, but I have not seen it seriously considered in any of the literature.

EgyptianRose wrote:
Also I thought Ankhesenamun and Tutankhamun were five years apart (I read somewhere, I can't remember where) which makes Ankhesenamun fourteen or thirteen when married to Tutankhamun eight or nine and making her twenty four when Tutankhamun died at nineteen and possibly twenty five when she dies and disappears from history!

I think you are right on that one.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to add the KV21A mummy to this debate.

According to the DNA evidence, this mummy and Tutankhamun were the parents of the foetuses found with their father. If this means that KV21A is Akhesenamun, the age at death fits with her being older than Tutankhamun (25 to 40 years of age).

Of course we don't know when she died, but as there is no evidence for her existence beyond Ay's reign, it's not impossible that she died at around 25 i.e. the right age gap with her former husband. If she died before Tutankhamun (unlikely given the ring found with hers and Ay's cartouches as well as the Amarna letters), the age difference still works.

The DNA evidence also makes more sense for this to be Akhesenamun rather than Akhesenamun-Tasherit in my opinion - for more about this see the thread about the KV21A mummy:
http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5918

I did consider this question, but unless we find more evidence I just don't think it stacks up that Akhesenamun-Tasherit was Tutankhamun's wife.
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EgyptianRose
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thankyou Anneke Smile Though one thing you mentioned did get me...

Quote:
I thought they was usually seen as the daughter of the marriage by Akhenaten to his daughters Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten.


So Akhenaten did marry Meritaten and Ankhesenamun/paaten? I've heard it before, though didn't believe it whatsoever. Is it so, is there evidence of this occuring?
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Vangu Vegro
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^There's evidence Akhenaten married Meritaten because she gets the title of 'Great Royal Wife' at some point later in Akhenaten's reign.

I'm not aware of such evidence existing for Ankhesenpaaten. As far as I know, it's based on the one (possible) appearance of an Ankhesenpaaten-Tasherit, the assumption that Ankhesenpaaten had to have been the mother of that girl (just like Neferneferuaten-Tasherit was the daughter of Neferneferuaten Nefertiti), and the already mentioned marriage between Akhenaten and another of his daughters.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vangu Vegro wrote:
^There's evidence Akhenaten married Meritaten because she gets the title of 'Great Royal Wife' at some point later in Akhenaten's reign.

I'm not aware of such evidence existing for Ankhesenpaaten. As far as I know, it's based on the one (possible) appearance of an Ankhesenpaaten-Tasherit, the assumption that Ankhesenpaaten had to have been the mother of that girl (just like Neferneferuaten-Tasherit was the daughter of Neferneferuaten Nefertiti), and the already mentioned marriage between Akhenaten and another of his daughters.


What if this queen is just Neferneferuaten-Tasherit. I've noticed alot of people jumping passed the likeliness of this queen being her.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't aware that we had evidence of Meritaten's title of 'Great Wife' previous to Smenkhkara's accession. My understanding was that her marriage to her father was based on the title 'Mistress of your house' given to her by a correspondent in the Amarna Letters, assuming that 'Mayati' and the 'Mistress' were indeed the same person.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i always thought she was promoted to great royal wife when kiya fell into disgrace, why else would kiya'smonuments be usurped by a princess? they could have just put nefertiti on them instead.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
I wasn't aware that we had evidence of Meritaten's title of 'Great Wife' previous to Smenkhkara's accession. My understanding was that her marriage to her father was based on the title 'Mistress of your house' given to her by a correspondent in the Amarna Letters, assuming that 'Mayati' and the 'Mistress' were indeed the same person.


I looked at google books and the inscriptions showing Meritaten as great royal wife seem to come from the Maru-Aten (as Kyle mentioned) and from the mention of "Mayati" in the Amarna letters (as you mentioned).

I am not sure if anyone knows if the usurpation of the sunshade occurred before or after the appearance of Smenkhare.

I looked at two somewhat random books: Aldred (1991 Akhenaten) and Tyldesley (2006 Chronicle of the Queens).

Aldred still has the scenario that Nefertiti died in ca year 14, and Meritaten became great royal wife at that point. In year 15 he has Smenkhare as co-regent and marrying Meritaten at that point, while Akhenaten then marries Ankhesenpaaten.

Tyldesley only associates Meritaten with Smenkhare and dismisses the idea that Meritaten married Akhenaten.

It seems accepted that Meritaten became a great royal wife towards the end of her father's reign. But it seems to me that the identity of her spouse depends on what happened with Akhenaten/Smenkhare/Neferneferuaten towards the end of the reign?
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wish we'd stop reading a change of ownership as 'usurpation' or an indication of disgrace. For all we know it was a simple real estate transaction between the royal ladies!

There are some indications (talatat images and a wine jar docket) that Kiya may have survived to the end of Akhenaten's reign. If so Maru Aten may have been transferred to Meritaten, the new queen, as the old harem retired into obscurity or it might even have been a gift from Kiya to the rising star with a sharp eye for future favor.

The chronology of the last years of Akhenaten and the brief reigns of Nefer-neferu-aten and Smenkhkara are a total mess. There is at present no way to tell conclusively either the order of succession or if there was any overlap.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
I wish we'd stop reading a change of ownership as 'usurpation' or an indication of disgrace. For all we know it was a simple real estate transaction between the royal ladies! ...

The (presumably) in two stages erased inscriptions on the canopic jars from KV 55 as yet speak a different language ... And do not really fit to this.

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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree meretseger, that it is an interesting point. but the actual figure has been recarved in these scenes. why would they need to change anything? they would just change the cartouche and titles. but they've done more than that.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re-inscribed burial equipment could easily mean the Lady was still alive and didn't need it yet, Lutz. Surely it would be easier to adapt unused warehoused items them dig up a burial? Possibly with the restoration of the Old Gods Kiya didn't want her atenist equipment any more?

Kiya's images were apparently recarved to fit the Queen-Princess Meritaten's personal iconography which meant not only adding ureauses but lengthing the skull. The defacing including cut out eyes was probably aimed at Meritaten NOT Kiya.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Re-inscribed burial equipment could easily mean the Lady was still alive and didn't need it yet, Lutz. ...

Extremely unlikely (and by the way veeery constructed). The deletion of the inscriptions was conducted (in accordance to M. Gabolde, 2009) on two different points in time. Initially only the name of Kija was deleted. Probably for the usage in KV 55 the rest of the inscription, which referred to Aton and Akhenaton (the first part of the title of Kija) was deleted.

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Robson
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Surely it would be easier to adapt unused warehoused items them dig up a burial?


It actually happened many times. Let alone the musical chairs routine done to the royal mummies in Deir El-Bahari cache
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know but since there's evidence for Kiya surviving to the end of Akhenaten's reign AND the shifts in religion suggest at least the possibility of warehoused equipment.
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