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what if Ankhesenpaaten Tasherit married Tut instead?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
... since there's evidence for Kiya surviving to the end of Akhenaten's reign ...

Says who and where?

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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aldred citing a talatat that apparently depicts Akhenaten worshipping the Aten attended by his two elder daughters and Kiya and her daughter in a lower register. There is also a wine jar docket from Kiya's estate which seems to date to year 16. Given the uncertainty of the change in ownership of Maru Aten there is no pressing reason to assume she DIDN'T survive her husband. Her equipment could have come from stores or from a tomb there is no certainty of which and the former is at least a possibility.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Aldred ...



Meretseger wrote:
... citing a talatat that apparently depicts Akhenaten worshipping the Aten attended by his two elder daughters and Kiya and her daughter in a lower register. ...

As I have already told you several times in other threads in this forum there is simply no talatat (scene) like this. It is an interpretation of a scene by Aldred which he can prove with nothing (no inscriptions, the women he described as Kija may as well be Nefertiti). I have all the publications of larger groups of talatat from Karnak and Hermopolis. Nowhere do we find something to fit the fantasies by Aldred. Have you ever wondered why he is not given an exact number of this talatats?

Meretseger wrote:
... There is also a wine jar docket from Kiya's estate which seems to date to year 16. ...

Apart from the fact that the reading is uncertain (year 1 would also be possible, the piece is badly damaged) and Akhenaten is still alive in his 17th year, even after the disappearance of Kiya still wine from one of her former goods could have been delivered. Would not be unusual, there are evidence of earlier times.

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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fragmentary nature of the evidence from that period makes a number of scenarios possible. Kiya's equipment could have been usurped when the remains of the Amarnan royalty were transfered to Thebes. If we ever find a cache holding the Amarnan royal ladies (cross your fingers everyone!) and Kiya is there that would settle the question. If Kiya should be found elswhere, say in the necropoli associated with one of the harem palaces that would almost certainly mean she survived her husband.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
If Kiya should be found elswhere, say in the necropoli associated with one of the harem palaces that would almost certainly mean she survived her husband.


Uhm, and why is that?

We know that while Great Royal Wives were often buried with their husband, the king, this doesn't mean that this was always the case, as one can see from earlier 18th Dynasty burials.

For example, Tia'a, the GRW of Amenhotep II and mother of Thutmose IV, was buried alone in KV 32. This may have been the practice for minor wives (Tia'a's GRW title may be a prolepsis, as she is not known to have had the title of GRW during her husband-king's lifetime, but only after the ascension of her son Thutmose IV to the throne).

Meanwhile, Thutmose III's foreign minor wives were buried in a lavishly furnished rock-cut tomb in Wady Gabbanat el-Qurud, and not with their husband-king.

On the other hand, Tiye, the GRW of Amenhotep III, was likely reburied with Amenhotep III after her first burial at Amarna (if theories about her burial shrine found in KV 55 hold). Her body was found in the same burial chamber (KV 35) as her husband's body, although this site was a cache burial site and not the original resting place for either mummy.

So, in the case of Kiya - who was a minor wife and not a GRW - if her body was found in either a separate burial tomb, or as part of some mass "harem burial" (I know of none found for 18th Dynasty, BTW), why would such prove that she survived her husband, Akhenaten?
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point. But why should Kiya be buried anywhere but where she lived? I will concede however that burial at a harem palace would likely indicate a loss of favor if she DID pre-decease her husband.

I've kind of lost interest in Kiya since the DNA proved she couldn't be the mother of Smenkhkara and Tutankhamun - and that they were most likely respectively the brother and nephew of Akhenaten. My favorite theory blown to smitherines! Sad ah well...

However I stubbornly insist that we should not take a transfer of property as proof of either death OR disgrace.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
But why should Kiya be buried anywhere but where she lived?


A burial elsewhere wouldn't necessarily be her original burial. Supposing for the sake of argument that she had predeceased Akhenaton by some period of time, by the time the tombs at Amarna were cleared out, she could quite possibly have been seen -- with apologies to the lady -- as something of an also-ran of history. With Akhenaton's death, she would have had little if any call on the new rulers, who were of a different, albeit related lineage. It doesn't seem implausible to conceive of whomever was behind the clearing out of the tombs, finding themselves stuck with a body who represented little if anything to them, offering that body to such family as she may have had (presuming she was Egyptian) and letting them deal with it.

Meretseger wrote:
I will concede however that burial at a harem palace would likely indicate a loss of favor if she DID pre-decease her husband.



Again, I don't see this as necessarily following. Tiye, for example, lived at places other than Memphis, Thebes, Malkata, or Amarna, and there's nothing in the record to suggest that she was in disgrace at any period of time, either before or after Amenhotep III's death.

If she survived her husband, it could simply be that was her customary place of residence at the time she died. If she predeceased him, it could also be that was her customary place of residence. There's nothing to suggest that Amarna was the only place her husband resided. He may have spent a good deal of time there, but if he followed at all the practice of the kings before and after his reign, his existence was likely to have been a good deal spent travelling to one place or another and residing there for lesser or longer periods of time. There isn't any evidence that he, himself, died at Amarna. The boundary stelś appear to envision the very real possibility of his death somewhere else, after all.

And it seems equally plausible to envision her customary residence elsewhere as merely being evidence of two high-status women who possibly didn't get along. Despite all his power, it might have been more domestically peaceful to the King to keep his two highly-favoured women in two different places.

It also seems as if what appear to have been her grave-goods being usurped, rededicated, and repurposed within such a short while could also be cited as evidence that she hadn't survived.

If one were going to make an argument for the survival of anyone, it almost seems like it would be more plausible to make it for Nefertiti. No evidence, as far as I know, exists for there having been a sarcophagus of hers at Amarna, although the fragments of one made for Tiye at Amarna do exist. There is the one shabti -- but, IIRC, that object also bears indications that it may also have been inscribed with the name of Akhenaton ... which perhaps indicates it may have been similar when whole and original to the double-shabti of Amenhotep III and Tiye from Amenhotep's tomb. And from the same tomb, there are a number of shabtis of Tiye which don't seem to indicate her death, there being a plenitude of evidence that she survived her husband.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oddly enough I feel that the fact her burial equipment was 'repurposed' is good evidence that she may have been alive and equipment in storage convenient to hand.

The problem with Nefertiti is that she pretty much disappears from view after Meketaten's burial. Merytaten (Mayati) seems to be acting as her father's feminine counterpart late in the reign from the evidence of the Amarna letters.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
... Nefertiti ... disappears from view after Meketaten's burial. Merytaten (Mayati) seems to be acting as her father's feminine counterpart late in the reign from the evidence of the Amarna letters.

In connection with your theory about deleted inscriptions of Kija this should give the logically follow up to the replace of the name of Nefertiti which the name of her daughter on Amarna inscriptions ...?

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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I follow you, Lutz.

Nefertiti seems to disappear altogether from the official record while Kiya was never really in it being a secondary if favored wife. Maru Aten clearly indicates that it was transferred from her ownership to Meritaten's but we don't know exactly when or under what circumstances.

Kiya *might* have died; or she might have retired from court either due to loss of favor or Akhenaten's death; or she might simply have given or sold Maru Aten to Meritaten.

Far more recent royal families have had a general shifting and trading of residences upon the death of the monarch or even lesser members of the family and there seem to have been several deaths among the royal ladies c. yr. 14 including Tiye and Nefertiti that might necessitate or encourage must shifting of real estate.

In short the question is more open then is realized and we mustn't jump to the most dramatic conclusions.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
I'm not sure I follow you, Lutz ...

No real news, this impression I have some time ...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't call that a clarification, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Royal widows Reply with quote

Do we know of any Great Royal Wife in the 18th dynasty who married her husband's successor?

Anchesenpašten, daughter of Achnaten and Nefertiti did marry potentially both her father and Smekhkare. So with either of the latter two being Tut's father that would mean Tut marrying one of his father's widows.

Im also favoring the Tashjerit version as Tut's queen. She was younger than the king and AIII married as a boy an ever younger Tiye.

the younger Anchesenpašton would be a granddaughter of Achnaten and Nefertiti either by their first daughter Meritaten or their third Anchesepašton senior. The father could be Achnaten or Smekhkare meaning Tut married his cousin or halfsister on the paternal side.

Young girls have a higher risk of early births and miscarriages so the two foetuses could be the result of the young age of Tut's Great Royal Wife. As both were young they and their courtiers were probably not too bothered about it. Expecting him to live much longer than he eventually did.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Royal widows Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
Do we know of any Great Royal Wife in the 18th dynasty who married her husband's successor?

Anchesenpašten, daughter of Achnaten and Nefertiti did marry potentially both her father and Smekhkare. So with either of the latter two being Tut's father that would mean Tut marrying one of his father's widows.

Im also favoring the Tashjerit version as Tut's queen. She was younger than the king and AIII married as a boy an ever younger Tiye.

the younger Anchesenpašton would be a granddaughter of Achnaten and Nefertiti either by their first daughter Meritaten or their third Anchesepašton senior. The father could be Achnaten or Smekhkare meaning Tut married his cousin or halfsister on the paternal side.

Young girls have a higher risk of early births and miscarriages so the two foetuses could be the result of the young age of Tut's Great Royal Wife. As both were young they and their courtiers were probably not too bothered about it. Expecting him to live much longer than he eventually did.


Well said, I think if the older Akhensepaaten had married Tut their children would have survived due to her older age and yes the possibility that the Younger Paaten was around
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Royal widows Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
... Anchesenpašten, daughter of Achnaten and Nefertiti did marry potentially both her father and Smekhkare. ...

Says, unless you, who, where and why?

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