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Frater0082
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 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| kylejustin wrote: | | Frater0082 wrote: | | Not unless they they made it into King Tut's reign(yes i'm still implying that it was Ankhesepaaten-Tasherit that was married to Tut instead of her mother). Ankhesepaaten-Tasherit could also changed her name to Ankhesenamun and dropped her Tasherit title. |
that could happen, but they would need some way to differentiate between the 2 queens.....and ankhesenamun hold no title that would say she is different from another queen of the same name......
| Frater0082 wrote: | | Also I think the reason why their names were replaced by Kiya's daughter is perhaps because she was already grown up and maybe their aunt didn't mind if they claim their step-mother's assets. |
kiya's daughter was part of the ORIGINAL scene. when kiya dissapears, her monuments were recarved for meritaten and ankhesenamun....like already stated, they did a hash job, and thought that ankhesenamun and meritaten were mothers, when in reality the existence of the tasherit's is a mistake.....the little girl behind the princesses in the scenes is kiya's daughter. and we do not know her name.
what do you mean by 'aunt'?
| Frater0082 wrote: | | I don't beleive that Ankhesepaaten-Senior married three of her male family members over such short course of time. However, I due beleive that she and her sisters Mekenaten and Meritaten became Great Royal Wives under their father just like their aunt's Sitamun, Isis, Henuttaneb did under their father AIII. |
Ohm wouldn't Kiya's daughter be a half-sister to Ankhesenamun and her sisters?
ankhesenamun was married to tutankhamun. that is the only proof of any of her 'marriages'. her promotion to prominence in scenes late from her father's reign has given some experts to think she MAY have married her father. while there is no solid evidence of that, there is precedent: amenhotep III married or promoted 3 of his daughters. as for aye, the only evidence of marriage to him is a ring that has both of their names on it. they are not mentioned in any insrciptions or scenes together from what i have seen.
| Frater0082 wrote: | | Come on, People let's get real here. Most children at the age of 8 would not want to play with a 16 year old and neither would a 16 year old want to play an 8 year old . I don't think Tut would marry Ankh-senior for political reasons. They have completely different mind set. |
it does not matter what the princess wants. she does as she is told, by her father, an official, whoever is in power at the time. isabella of france was 8 when she married richard II of england. he was around 30. henry VII's mother margaret beaufort was 12 when she gave birth to him. there are many examples of child or teenage brides marrying adult and middle aged kings. so tut marrying an older cousin is perfectly normal, and neither would have been given any choice in the matter.
as for 'political reasons', ankhesenamun is the perfect choice for queen. she is of child bearing age, she has no family left- so no one can form a power base behind her and try to control the king, she is of royal blood, and if she marries the current king, she can't marry someone else and set up an alternate line of succession. she is also maleable to help set up the old ways again. she can be trained to do what the new government wants. and she is old enough to get started, not some child they have to wait for maturity-which they could never be 100% would happen.
i suggest you read more on the amarna period, and in royal marriages full stop. most of the points here you have raised are invalid. stop thinking of the facts as they would apply to someone from the 21st century, and start thinking about it from a different perspective. |
I had done my research on the Amarna in fact everyday for the past months now and i'm just theorizing what I assume could have been possible. But about my point, it was mainly from Tut prospective of things because he would have the absolute say so on how he want things to be run. |
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Meretseger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Frater0082 wrote: |
Come on, People let's get real here. Most children at the age of 8 would not want to play with a 16 year old and neither would a 16 year old want to play an 8 year old . I don't think Tut would marry Ankh-senior for political reasons. They have completely different mind set. |
Frater, eight year olds do what they are told, and so do sixteen year old princesses. What the children WANTED was entirely immaterial. Tut needed to secure his claim by marriage to the next heiress and that was Ankhesenanum |
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Meretseger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| kylejustin wrote: |
it does not matter what the princess wants. she does as she is told, by her father, an official, whoever is in power at the time. isabella of france was 8 when she married richard II of england. he was around 30. henry VII's mother margaret beaufort was 12 when she gave birth to him. there are many examples of child or teenage brides marrying adult and middle aged kings. so tut marrying an older cousin is perfectly normal, and neither would have been given any choice in the matter. |
There are more than a few examples of boy Emperors marrying older girls as well in the history of the Japanese Imperial dynasty. They didn't have anything to say about it either. |
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Meretseger
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Frater0082 wrote: |
I had done my research on the Amarna in fact everyday for the past months now and i'm just theorizing what I assume could have been possible. But about my point, it was mainly from Tut prospective of things because he would have the absolute say so on how he want things to be run. |
Dear God what gives you that idea? Tut was EIGHT (or maybe nine) and completely in the hands of his regents. They said marry Ankhesenpaaten he married her - and probably didn't care too much at that age anyway. |
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Frater0082
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Meretseger wrote: | | Frater0082 wrote: |
I had done my research on the Amarna in fact everyday for the past months now and i'm just theorizing what I assume could have been possible. But about my point, it was mainly from Tut prospective of things because he would have the absolute say so on how he want things to be run. |
Dear God what gives you that idea? Tut was EIGHT (or maybe nine) and completely in the hands of his regents. They said marry Ankhesenpaaten he married her - and probably didn't care too much at that age anyway. |
Ohm the fact that Tut was the king  |
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Frater0082
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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About the fact that Tut's reign was in the hands of his regents. I use to think that Horembed may have counted his years as a regent under of Tut and Ay which does total out to 14 years(T10+A4=H14) but i've been proven wrong before 
But does anyone find it strange that Horembeb died the year following of his Wife's death.  |
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herper
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Not really. Remember plague was running wild all through this area for years, and other diseases we call minor due to modern medicine the ancients called death sentences. |
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Nefertum
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Frater0082 wrote: |
Come on, People let's get real here. Most children at the age of 8 would not want to play with a 16 year old and neither would a 16 year old want to play an 8 year old . I don't think Tut would marry Ankh-senior for political reasons. They have completely different mind set. |
You're presuming our mind-set is their mind-set.
I'd again reiterate that there is no actual evidence that the two Tasherits had any existence other than as presumed daughters of Kiya.
And examples from more modern times might be cited. For example, Louis XV of France was betrothed, essentially without his consent. The marriage was supposed to have been consummated when the young princess reached the age of 15. It was broken off when the King was 15 and the little princess was 5.
Five years later, the little princess was married at the age of 10 to the 14 year old Crown Prince of Portugal. Four years later, their first child was born. She eventually became Queen of Portugal. She married her paternal uncle. Their oldest son, in turn, was married at the age of 15 to his 31 year old maternal aunt.
It doesn't have anything to do with play. |
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Sa-Sobek
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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It's certainly an interesting idea. As stated before, the low birthrate between Tut and his wife is just as easily attributable to being prepubescent for the first half of his reign.
One thing in favor of this theory or any other alternative is the fact that the mummy thought to be the mother of Tut's daughters has been shown to be a member of the 18th dynasty, but not the daughter of the mummy thought to be Akhenaten. But, even barring the alternate theory that mummy in KV55 may be Smenkhare, that just opens up another cans of worms. |
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Frater0082
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Sa-Sobek wrote: | It's certainly an interesting idea. As stated before, the low birthrate between Tut and his wife is just as easily attributable to being prepubescent for the first half of his reign.
One thing in favor of this theory or any other alternative is the fact that the mummy thought to be the mother of Tut's daughters has been shown to be a member of the 18th dynasty, but not the daughter of the mummy thought to be Akhenaten. But, even barring the alternate theory that mummy in KV55 may be Smenkhare, that just opens up another cans of worms. |
For me one question sticks out WHO ARE THE MUMMIES OF KV21 is it both Ankhesenamun and her older sister Meritaten seniors or the Tasherits its so mind boggling  |
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Meretseger
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| It's possible. But the late 18th dynasty ran to princesses and there are a lot of possibilities; daughters and sisters of Amenhotep III, daughters of Akhenaten, granddaughters if any of the above... |
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kylejustin
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:57 am Post subject: |
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i don't understand why kv 55 being smenkhkare is opening a can of worms. we know the mummies in kv21 can't be his daughters, so if you assume from the knowledge we have, mainly tut had one known wife, and you assume the mother is ankhesenamun, then she is found in kv21.
ergo, you have ankhesenamun who we know was not a daughter of smenkhkare. you can have ankhesenamun or akhenaten in your theory of the identities, but you cannot have both......
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heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over..... |
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Sothis
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Meretseger wrote: | | kylejustin wrote: |
it does not matter what the princess wants. she does as she is told, by her father, an official, whoever is in power at the time. isabella of france was 8 when she married richard II of england. he was around 30. henry VII's mother margaret beaufort was 12 when she gave birth to him. there are many examples of child or teenage brides marrying adult and middle aged kings. so tut marrying an older cousin is perfectly normal, and neither would have been given any choice in the matter. |
There are more than a few examples of boy Emperors marrying older girls as well in the history of the Japanese Imperial dynasty. They didn't have anything to say about it either. |
Maybe my input comes a litlle late, but nobody has mentioned another famous example so far. Cleopatra VII (was) married to two much younger brothers for dynastic reasons, what did not prevent her to turn to other men as well as we know.....
The brother who was her second husband even acompanied her to her extensive visit to Rome |
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Sa-Sobek
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| kylejustin wrote: | i don't understand why kv 55 being smenkhkare is opening a can of worms. we know the mummies in kv21 can't be his daughters, so if you assume from the knowledge we have, mainly tut had one known wife, and you assume the mother is ankhesenamun, then she is found in kv21.
ergo, you have ankhesenamun who we know was not a daughter of smenkhkare. you can have ankhesenamun or akhenaten in your theory of the identities, but you cannot have both...... |
Smenkhare being mummy KV55 would perfectly resolve that issue. But barring/disregarding that theory, if the popular idea that the mummy belongs to Akhenaten is correct, that would open a can of worms.
The age difference between Tut and his wife doesn't seem to be a big issue; I could see it being perceived as a positive for a young king to have an older wife of reproductive age. |
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herper
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:19 am Post subject: |
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Human nature, Tut as he got a little older was probably saying to himself, heck i got this hot older girl as a wife. ITS GOOD TO BE THE KING!  |
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