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what if Ankhesenpaaten Tasherit married Tut instead?
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: what if Ankhesenpaaten Tasherit married Tut instead? Reply with quote

What if Ankhesepaaten Tasherit married Tut instead of her mother Ankhesepaaten senior?

To me it seems to be unlikely that Ankhesepaaten Senior would have married Tut as she would have been 16 years old when Tut came to the throne and Tut would have been at least 8 or 9. which to me would have been too old, and considered the time era they were in she probably was considered a mature adult as tut a boy, so this to me rules her out as Tut's wife.

Ankhesepaaten Tasherit, however, would have been have been right on within Tut's age group being about 5 at the very beginning at Tut's reign. plus if you look at all the depictions of Ankhesepaaten from Tut's tomb she appears to be very young, like a teenager. her mother, however, would be just going into her early twenties, already a mature adult.

As for Tut's death, Why do people assume that Ankhesepaaten was 21 when her husband died. if she was the senior Paaten she would have been 26 years old, thus again ruling senior Paaten out as Tut's wife.

therefore KV21A and KV21B must be Ankhesepaaten Tasherit and Meritaten Tasherit, whom I beleive was a secondary wife to Tut.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I very much doubt age would have played an issue. In fact, Ankhesepaaten/Ankhesenamon being older may have been preferable because she would be able to bear children as soon as Tutankhamen reached puberty, which would have been of vital importance in a royal line lacking male heirs.

If he did marry the Tasherit I think it would only be because an elder royal daughter was unavailable.
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
I very much doubt age would have played an issue. In fact, Ankhesepaaten/Ankhesenamon being older may have been preferable because she would be able to bear children as soon as Tutankhamen reached puberty, which would have been of vital importance in a royal line lacking male heirs.

If he did marry the Tasherit I think it would only be because an elder royal daughter was unavailable.
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but paaten was unable to so. but like you said all choice of brides would have been made solely by the king
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, there is evidence of her fertility if she was, in fact, the mother of Ankhesepaaten-tasherit. No one would have any reason to think that she wouldn't bear living children to Tutankhamen.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there isn't any actual evidence for the tasherit girls. the theory seems to arise from the fact kiya is shown on monuments followed by a child, and when she died or fell into disgrace, meritaten and ankhesenamun took over her monuments. the recarving was not the best, and traces of kiya's daughter were left on the monuments.

there is no reason to think the ankhesenamun married to tutankhamun was not a daughter of akhenaten and nefertiti. as far as i know, ankhesenamun is a unique name.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
there isn't any actual evidence for the tasherit girls. the theory seems to arise from the fact kiya is shown on monuments followed by a child, and when she died or fell into disgrace, meritaten and ankhesenamun took over her monuments. the recarving was not the best, and traces of kiya's daughter were left on the monuments.

But this does not prove Ankhesenpaaten-tasherit did not exist.
I agree that there seems to be no other evidence that shows her without her mother, but on the other hand removing a person from a scene would not be hard to do. The figure could be erases, plastered over, etc.
The fact that they chose to keep the image of the child there is intriguing (I think). And could just as easily argue in favor of the existence of such a child.

My impression is that some people do not like to entertain the possible existence of this girl because she would be the offspring of an incestuous relation between a father and daughter. This is rather gross to us, but the idea may not be so strange to royalty who associated themselves with gods who were known to have such incestuous relations.

kylejustin wrote:
there is no reason to think the ankhesenamun married to tutankhamun was not a daughter of akhenaten and nefertiti. as far as i know, ankhesenamun is a unique name.

Well, there's Ankesenamun and Ankesenpaaten-tasherit. If this girl existed and changed her name to Ankehenamun, then the tasherit ("junior") would no longer be necessary to distinguish the two (just playing devil's advocate here Smile )

And if Tut actually married junior, that might explain the two children over 10 years of marriage. If his wife was Ankhesenamun-senior then 2 miscarriages over 10 years is a rather low birthrate? But if the younger girl had to mature first then we are looking at 2 pregnancies over a shorter time period. And I am making the assumption there were no other children. Boys would have inherited the throne and I would have suspected other (living) daughters to have been mentioned (although that is pure speculation on my part).
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think devil's advocate is a valuable role to play, from time to time, and since you're a queen, Anneke, who better to do so? Wink

Quote:
And if Tut actually married junior, that might explain the two children over 10 years of marriage. If his wife was Ankhesenamun-senior then 2 miscarriages over 10 years is a rather low birthrate? But if the younger girl had to mature first then we are looking at 2 pregnancies over a shorter time period. And I am making the assumption there were no other children. Boys would have inherited the throne and I would have suspected other (living) daughters to have been mentioned (although that is pure speculation on my part).


Good point. Though I can't help thinking (purely speculation, of course) that a daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti would not be skipped over in favor of a younger girl-child. The older royal daughters were very prominent in the state iconography so that a larger portion of the populous would recognize one, plus they seem to have been groomed from birth to fill several religious and state roles - in other words, they had the training and probably the will to be senior statespeople. Why toss that over in favor of an untrained and untested child?

Also, Ankhesenamun senior would have proven her fertility if she had already had one child and would be a better bet to produce more. The lack of children during Tutankhamun's reign could have been as much because of his immaturity as anything else. If he was nine when he ascended to the throne then we have a period of around four to five years before he reached puberty, leaving about five years before his untimely death. Each of the fetuses in his tomb were late term at between seven to nine months. So that is close to two years his queen would have spent actually pregnant - then we must consider her recovery time before she could safely attempt to conceive again. It seems to me that they began working on getting an heir pretty diligently as soon as it was feasible. And if Tutankhamun went on a military campaign or two, which is possible, that could easily eat away the remaining time, even if they were minor skirmishes.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
I can't help thinking (purely speculation, of course) that a daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti would not be skipped over in favor of a younger girl-child. The older royal daughters were very prominent in the state iconography so that a larger portion of the populous would recognize one, plus they seem to have been groomed from birth to fill several religious and state roles - in other words, they had the training and probably the will to be senior statespeople. Why toss that over in favor of an untrained and untested child?

Good point(s). It could be that the daughters of Akhenaten and Nefertiti had died already. The problem seems to me to be that there are to many possibilities.

If Neferneferuaten became regent and she was either Meritaten or Ankhesenpaaten, then one of the juniors as queen would make sense. (Lots of ifs though).

I wonder who would have been preferable to the policy makers who must have surely been working behind the scenes (Aye, Horemheb, Maya, etc). Would they prefer a more seasoned royal, or a more pliable child?

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
Also, Ankhesenamun senior would have proven her fertility if she had already had one child and would be a better bet to produce more. The lack of children during Tutankhamun's reign could have been as much because of his immaturity as anything else. If he was nine when he ascended to the throne then we have a period of around four to five years before he reached puberty, leaving about five years before his untimely death. Each of the fetuses in his tomb were late term at between seven to nine months. So that is close to two years his queen would have spent actually pregnant - then we must consider her recovery time before she could safely attempt to conceive again. It seems to me that they began working on getting an heir pretty diligently as soon as it was feasible. And if Tutankhamun went on a military campaign or two, which is possible, that could easily eat away the remaining time, even if they were minor skirmishes.

That's very true. I hadn't thought about it from the King's perspective, but that makes sense.

On the balance I do think Queen Ankesenamun was the third daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.

I do think there could be some small chance it was her daughter though. But I don't see how to really prove it one way or the other.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no clear evidence of an existence of the two Tascherits. All the inscriptions on the talatat mention them are modified, so-called palimpests. Other findings with their names do not exist. The finds in the tomb of Tutankhamun show not the slightest hint that his Great Royal Wife was not Anchsunamun, the third daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.

Lynda Green : Queens and Princesses of the Amarna Period (1988)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
There is no clear evidence of an existence of the two Tascherits. All the inscriptions on the talatat mention them are modified, so-called palimpests. Other findings with their names do not exist. The finds in the tomb of Tutankhamun show not the slightest hint that his Great Royal Wife was not Anchsunamun, the third daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.

Lynda Green : Queens and Princesses of the Amarna Period (1988)

Lutz
what if the evidence is right before our very eyes, what if we already know about one of the tasherits you have to admit there is no real yes or no answer to thier existance plus the tasherits names are written down so that counts for something.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What inscriptional evidence there is for the tasherits can be found referenced on this thread; http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5317&sid=64febc1489976d4ff588f407e93000be
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
Lutz wrote:
There is no clear evidence of an existence of the two Tascherits. All the inscriptions on the talatat mention them are modified, so-called palimpests. Other findings with their names do not exist. The finds in the tomb of Tutankhamun show not the slightest hint that his Great Royal Wife was not Anchsunamun, the third daughter of Akhenaten and Nefertiti.

Lynda Green : Queens and Princesses of the Amarna Period (1988)

Lutz
what if the evidence is right before our very eyes, what if we already know about one of the tasherits you have to admit there is no real yes or no answer to thier existance plus the tasherits names are written down so that counts for something.

You mean like the extra terrestrics on earth (U.S. preferably) for years now?
Other comments forbid the netiquette of the forum to me...

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
What inscriptional evidence there is for the tasherits can be found referenced on this thread; http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5317&sid=64febc1489976d4ff588f407e93000be

And furthermore: There is no clear evidence of an existence of the two Tascherits. All the inscriptions on the talatat mention them are modified, so-called palimpests. It should be added only: their reading is questionable or uncertain. The link presents an interpretation, in this case, the one of Redford and Phizackerley, which are not the only ones and did not go unchallenged (see Green, 1988). Other findings with their names do not exist.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am making no claim one way or the other. I am simply offing a link with pictures of the inscriptions to Frater0082.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: WHAT! Reply with quote

Shocked I am extremely confused! I thought it was pretty well known that King tut married Ankhesenpaaten/Ankhesenamun the daughter of Neferteti and Akhenaten! Not Akhesenpaaten-Tasherit? I thought Ankhesenpaaten-Tasherit and Meritaten-Tasherit were considered to be children of Meritaten and Smenkhkare (If they even existed) or better yet the names of the two still born babies of Tutankhamun and Ankhesenamun (If that's even possible?)? I never thought or ever seen it suggested anywhere that Ankhesenpaaten-Tasherit married King Tutankhamun!? Idea

Also I thought Ankhesenamun and Tutankhamun were five years apart (I read somewhere, I can't remember where) which makes Ankhesenamun fourteen or thirteen when married to Tutankhamun eight or nine and making her twenty four when Tutankhamun died at nineteen and possibly twenty five when she dies and disappears from history!
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