Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

what if Ankhesenpaaten Tasherit married Tut instead?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Sa-Sobek
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You never know! Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Ikon
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading this thread several times all I can add is this.
"There are known knowns; there are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns; that is to say there are things that, we now know we don't know.
But there are also unknown unknowns Ė there are things we do not know, we don't know." Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
After reading this thread several times all I can add is this.
"There are known knowns; there are things we know that we know.
There are known unknowns; that is to say there are things that, we now know we don't know.
But there are also unknown unknowns Ė there are things we do not know, we don't know." Rolling Eyes


Huh?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Osiris II
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1752

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are substained truths that we know for a fact are true.
There are facts that we know from excavations and other resources that are true.
There are statements made that are questionable, but possibly true:
There are unknown happenings that we do not know happened, and are probably not true or questionable.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ikon
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Precisely! Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
Precisely! Smile


Oh okay i get it now Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Meretseger
Priest
Priest


Joined: 02 Jan 2010
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In short there's lots of wiggle room here in the Amarna tarpits which is why we like to play there! Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
In short there's lots of wiggle room here in the Amarna tarpits which is why we like to play there! Very Happy


It sure is alot of wiggle room Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One final thing to add to me theory is the DNA results. According to the DNA results it showed that one of the fetus's inherit traits from the Thumosids that they didn't get from Tut's side of the family which would indicate that Ankhesenamun's mother was a Thumosid herself.

And there is no evidence(yet) that indicate that Nefertiti was a Thumosid what so ever. Although it is suggested that Nefertiti is a daughter of Ay due to his daughter having the same name as Nefertiti's sister( but there not the same person). thus making it difficult to determine whether or not that the mummy of KV21A is actually Ankheseamun.

But in an alternative prospective, it wouldn't be so difficult if we assume that the mummy of KV21A is Ankhesenpaaten-Tasherit instead and her fetus's inherited thier genes from her mother Ankhesenpaaten-Senior who afterall was half Thumosid.

it is thought that Ankhesenamun was a sister/cousin to Tutankhamen. which would indicate that Ankhesenamun was the daughter of one of Tut's siblings. which directly points to her being the daughter of Ankhesenpaaten-Senior. thus in my opinion wraps up the identity of the mummy of KV21A.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1227
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually you have it wrong- tut's babies inherited DNA from thuya, tiye's mother, that the babies did not get from tutankhamun's side.

both mummies found in kv21 have DNA markers consistent with descent from the thutmosids, sharing quite a few alleles with amenhotep III.....suggesting they descend from him, but not via the kv55 mummy.

since akhenaten and nefertiti's mummies have yet to surface, we have nothing to compare the DNA more properly too. all we know is the babies are descended from thuya via their mother.....if nefertiti is a granddaughter of thuya it suggests nefertiti's mother was tiye's mother, not aye being her brother.

but you can think what you like......there are no laws against ignoring evidence. it just gives you less credibility.
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Frater0082
Account Suspended


Joined: 03 Jul 2012
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
actually you have it wrong- tut's babies inherited DNA from thuya, tiye's mother, that the babies did not get from tutankhamun's side.

both mummies found in kv21 have DNA markers consistent with descent from the thutmosids, sharing quite a few alleles with amenhotep III.....suggesting they descend from him, but not via the kv55 mummy.

since akhenaten and nefertiti's mummies have yet to surface, we have nothing to compare the DNA more properly too. all we know is the babies are descended from thuya via their mother.....if nefertiti is a granddaughter of thuya it suggests nefertiti's mother was tiye's mother, not aye being her brother.

but you can think what you like......there are no laws against ignoring evidence. it just gives you less credibility.


Actually i went off memory i acutally forgot what was what while writing this topic
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thieuke
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If KV55 isn't Achnaton (as he cannot be the maternal grandfather of the two foetusses in Tut's tomb and the father of Tut) than the likeliest candidate for him is Smenchkare. That leaves the possibility of KV21A to be a descendant of Amenhoptep III and Tiye through Achnaton. She could be his daughter Anchesenpašton or even Anchesenpašton Tashjerit if the second one truely existed. The parents of the Tashjerits are unknown. She may have been a daughter from Achnaton's potential marriages to any of his three elder daughters. If she was under 8 or 9 by the time Tut succeeded and we can have as much as three years between the death of Achnaton and Tut becoming Pharaoh that means the tashjerit could be born in the last 2 or 3 years of Achnatons reign. Meritaton was by that time in her mid teens if not older. The princesses were depicted with their parents but not as babies so it is perfectly possible they did not become part of the figurative art until the reached a certain age (2, 4 or even older). In that scenario even Anchesenpašton would have been in her mid to late teens in the year 14 of her father's reign.

Anchesenpašton was depicted from around the year 4 so by Achnaton's death in year 17 she must have been somewhere between 13 and 18 years old. If she was closer to the higher age it becomes more likely she would not have married an 8 year old at 20 or 21. It would make it more logical for the young king to be married to the Tasherit who would have been a couple of years younger than him.

An other option is that Anchesenamun was never Anchesenpašton (older or younger version) but someone completely different. We know that through their mother the two foetusses have links links with the Royal dynasty and that there must have been a female line linking them with (a female line ancestress) of Tiye and her mother Thuya. If Anchesenamun was not a descendant of Achnaton, KV55 could be him and Tut's Great Royal wife could be a distant relative. Potentially a descendant of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye by one of their daughters (other and KV35YL) or even of a sister, aunt or cousin of Tiye.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
karnsculpture
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 241

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd state that Ankhenesenamun and Ankhesenpaaten are the same person as the Aten form of her name appears on a few pieces from Tut's tomb e.g. the chair where they are shown under the sun disk.

In relation to the Hittite Prince correspondence I'm more convinced that the elder princess could have the power base to take this gambit. The actions are of a grown woman, possibly more formidable than she is given credit for, following in the footsteps of Tiye and Nefertiti.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sothis
Priest
Priest


Joined: 16 Nov 2009
Posts: 659

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
I'd state that Ankhenesenamun and Ankhesenpaaten are the same person as the Aten form of her name appears on a few pieces from Tut's tomb e.g. the chair where they are shown under the sun disk.

In relation to the Hittite Prince correspondence I'm more convinced that the elder princess could have the power base to take this gambit. The actions are of a grown woman, possibly more formidable than she is given credit for, following in the footsteps of Tiye and Nefertiti.


Formidable or rather foolish?
And did Tiye or Nefertiti cry for help of a foreigner?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thieuke
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 11 Aug 2012
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It all depends on the situation. Tut was not succeeded by his appointed second in command Horemreb but by Aye. Aye made use of the fact that Horemreb was away from the capital when Tut died.

Anchesenamun may very well have considered her unusual step as a way to prevent a civil war between Aye and Horemreb by offering an alternative to either of those to men.

The letter to me also makes clear that no other man of Thutmosid descent who would have been considered as a Royal was alive (this does not mean no men descending from AIII or any of his ancestors were not living in Egypt, just that they were not seen as dynasts or even potential options for a Queen to marry).
What baffles me is that Anchesenamun did not decide to follow into the footsteps of the two women in her Thutmosid line who took to the throne as Pharaoh.

The only reason i can think of why she did not do that is that something went terribly wrong with the example in recent history: Neferneferuaten.
The reign of this female pharaoh must have been so unsuccesfull that another attempt with a woman leading the country was seen as unacceptable.

Hatshepsut's reign was a success but long before Anchesenamun sent the letter. For her to come up with the idea of marrying the enemy king's son and make him pharaoh while there had been a woman on Egypt's throne only a decade before must mean that female ruler did not do well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Page 6 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group