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what if Ankhesenpaaten Tasherit married Tut instead?
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EgyptianRose
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
It all depends on the situation. Tut was not succeeded by his appointed second in command Horemreb but by Aye. Aye made use of the fact that Horemreb was away from the capital when Tut died.

Anchesenamun may very well have considered her unusual step as a way to prevent a civil war between Aye and Horemreb by offering an alternative to either of those to men.

The letter to me also makes clear that no other man of Thutmosid descent who would have been considered as a Royal was alive (this does not mean no men descending from AIII or any of his ancestors were not living in Egypt, just that they were not seen as dynasts or even potential options for a Queen to marry).
What baffles me is that Anchesenamun did not decide to follow into the footsteps of the two women in her Thutmosid line who took to the throne as Pharaoh.

The only reason i can think of why she did not do that is that something went terribly wrong with the example in recent history: Neferneferuaten.
The reign of this female pharaoh must have been so unsuccesfull that another attempt with a woman leading the country was seen as unacceptable.

Hatshepsut's reign was a success but long before Anchesenamun sent the letter. For her to come up with the idea of marrying the enemy king's son and make him pharaoh while there had been a woman on Egypt's throne only a decade before must mean that female ruler did not do well.


Or perhaps Ankhesenamun had no other alternative, other than introducing a foriegn prince to become the king of Egypt ( which would have bound an alliance between the two prosperous countries, if successful, which evidently it wasn't and had the opposite effect!) or simply Ankhesenamun did not consider herself capable to rule the country of Egypt at that time, independently. In Ankhesenamun's letter (which I do believe was sent by Ankhesenamun) she states that she does not want to marry one of her slaves, which perhaps she is referring to Aye by?

Also keep in mind, Hatshepsut took a few years until she proclaimed herself the independent ruler of Egypt, previously being co-regent to her nephew/stepson Thutmosis III. Hatshepsut I suppose had more ample oppurtunity to proclaim herself "pharaoh" of Egypt opposed to Ankhesenamun, then again, I don't know, we don't know the situation that Ankhesenamun was in or what her motives were to have sent a letter to a foreign King in order to propose marriage with one of his sons and allow him to become king of Egypt. Idea

Though by the letters she sent to the foreign king, pleading for a prince to become her husband, do give the impression, that the queen is desperate and distressed about the matter, possibly indicating, all was not well...
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It is of course the hieght of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers!

Quote 'Amarna Sunset' by Aidan Dodson.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EgyptianRose wrote:
Thieuke wrote:
It all depends on the situation. Tut was not succeeded by his appointed second in command Horemreb but by Aye. Aye made use of the fact that Horemreb was away from the capital when Tut died.

Anchesenamun may very well have considered her unusual step as a way to prevent a civil war between Aye and Horemreb by offering an alternative to either of those to men.

The letter to me also makes clear that no other man of Thutmosid descent who would have been considered as a Royal was alive (this does not mean no men descending from AIII or any of his ancestors were not living in Egypt, just that they were not seen as dynasts or even potential options for a Queen to marry).
What baffles me is that Anchesenamun did not decide to follow into the footsteps of the two women in her Thutmosid line who took to the throne as Pharaoh.

The only reason i can think of why she did not do that is that something went terribly wrong with the example in recent history: Neferneferuaten.
The reign of this female pharaoh must have been so unsuccesfull that another attempt with a woman leading the country was seen as unacceptable.

Hatshepsut's reign was a success but long before Anchesenamun sent the letter. For her to come up with the idea of marrying the enemy king's son and make him pharaoh while there had been a woman on Egypt's throne only a decade before must mean that female ruler did not do well.


Or perhaps Ankhesenamun had no other alternative, other than introducing a foriegn prince to become the king of Egypt ( which would have bound an alliance between the two prosperous countries, if successful, which evidently it wasn't and had the opposite effect!) or simply Ankhesenamun did not consider herself capable to rule the country of Egypt at that time, independently. In Ankhesenamun's letter (which I do believe was sent by Ankhesenamun) she states that she does not want to marry one of her slaves, which perhaps she is referring to Aye by?

Also keep in mind, Hatshepsut took a few years until she proclaimed herself the independent ruler of Egypt, previously being co-regent to her nephew/stepson Thutmosis III. Hatshepsut I suppose had more ample oppurtunity to proclaim herself "pharaoh" of Egypt opposed to Ankhesenamun, then again, I don't know, we don't know the situation that Ankhesenamun was in or what her motives were to have sent a letter to a foreign King in order to propose marriage with one of his sons and allow him to become king of Egypt. Idea

Though by the letters she sent to the foreign king, pleading for a prince to become her husband, do give the impression, that the queen is desperate and distressed about the matter, possibly indicating, all was not well...


Comparisons to Hatshepsut may not be all that relevent. It seems to me that Hatshepsut was in a much stronger position than Ankhesenamon ever was. She was daughter of a very successful and admired pharoah. Ankhesenamon was the daughter of arguably the most hated figure ever to rule Egypt. Hatshepsut had the support of many of her father's old officials--we can't say that about Ankhesenamon. Finally, the official response to Hatshepsut's reign was, eventually, to erase it from history. This as much as anything might have persuaded Ankhesenamon to try to get a strong man at her side.
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EgyptianRose
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Comparisons to Hatshepsut may not be all that relevent. It seems to me that Hatshepsut was in a much stronger position than Ankhesenamon ever was. She was daughter of a very successful and admired pharoah. Ankhesenamon was the daughter of arguably the most hated figure ever to rule Egypt. Hatshepsut had the support of many of her father's old officials--we can't say that about Ankhesenamon. Finally, the official response to Hatshepsut's reign was, eventually, to erase it from history. This as much as anything might have persuaded Ankhesenamon to try to get a strong man at her side


My post was in response to Thieuke's comment...

Quote:
What baffles me is that Anchesenamun did not decide to follow into the footsteps of the two women in her Thutmosid line who took to the throne as Pharaoh


Which thankyou Naunacht reiterated, precisely. Ankhesenamun was in a more vunerable situation than Hatshepsut and presumably Sobekneferu, so Thieke's there's your answer as to why Ankhesenamun couldn't just simply "follow in the footsteps of the two women in her Thutmosid line".

What really baffles me, is there any evidence suggesting who the mother(s) of Ankhesenpaaten-Tasherit and Meritaten-Tasherit may have been (If they exsisted ofcourse) and who their father(s) may have been? If there is any evidence suggesting that Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaten were the mothers of Maritaten-Tasherit and Ankhesenpaaten-Tasherit then is it more than likely Ankhenaten, their own father, was the father, of their children? I would definately hope not...

Did they not have any concept of incestous relationships Idea Shocked
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It is of course the hieght of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers!

Quote 'Amarna Sunset' by Aidan Dodson.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EgyptianRose wrote:

Did they not have any concept of incestous relationships Idea Shocked


It would appear not. Incestuous marriages seem to have been rare to non-existent outside of the royal family until Ptolemaic times but there was apparently no taboo against them which makes AE quite unusual.

In a late dynastic story a prince and princess who are full siblings fall in love and want to marry. Their father the Pharaoh's only concerns are political - wouldn't it be wiser for his children to make alliances with other powerful families? He eventually decides their happiness is more important.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, the whole Zannanza sitaution clearly shows that Ankhesenamun knew very little of the consequences of treachury (especially in the case of the Hittites, the Egyptians top rival). For me, this leads to a question of Ankhesenamun's identity.

Clearly if this was the older Ankhesenpaaten, she would have know of dangers of offering the Throne to one of Egpyts enemies.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It would appear not. Incestuous marriages seem to have been rare to non-existent outside of the royal family until Ptolemaic times but there was apparently no taboo against them which makes AE quite unusual.


Why so? Were incestous marriages and relationships more commonly practised in Ancient Egypt opposed to other ancient cultures/civilisations?



Quote:
In a late dynastic story a prince and princess who are full siblings fall in love and want to marry. Their father the Pharaoh's only concerns are political - wouldn't it be wiser for his children to make alliances with other powerful families? He eventually decides their happiness is more important.


I also came across this tale, whilst reading my previuos book, which makes me wonder why incestous relationships were so accepted in Ancient Egypt?
Possibly encouraged furthermore by the myths which surrounded their gods and godessess e.g. Osiris and Isis...




Quote:
To me, the whole Zannanza sitaution clearly shows that Ankhesenamun knew very little of the consequences of treachury (especially in the case of the Hittites, the Egyptians top rival). For me, this leads to a question of Ankhesenamun's identity.

Clearly if this was the older Ankhesenpaaten, she would have know of dangers of offering the Throne to one of Egpyts enemies.


Back on topic... Not necessarily, there is no basis to what you have said, at all! Just because of someone's lack of knowledge on the consequences that may have occured (If that's even the case), doesn't automatically indentify them? In defense of Ankhsenamun perhaps she sought benefits from the foreign marriage, gaining an alliance with Egypt's powerful opposition?

Just a question if Tutankhamun did say, marry Ankhesenpaaten "junior", then why is her name not written as Ankhesenamun-Tasherit, instead she is simply referred to as Ankhesenamun...? If that has any relevance at all.
_________________
It is of course the hieght of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers!

Quote 'Amarna Sunset' by Aidan Dodson.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer this question it would be useful to find out if the designation ta-sherit was usually kept even in adulthood or if it was dropped after childhood.
I once came across a lady soandso-ta-sherit who was a grown woman of about 30 (non-royal and from the New Kingdom I believe). The fact that she had kept the ta-sherit part of her name well into adulthood may point to this being the norm but then it may also have been kept to distinguish the daughter from a still living mother with the same name.

Queen Tetisheri, however, held this name for all her life and she had no need to distinguish herself from her mother who was called Neferu.
This makes a stronger case for (ta-)sheri being an essential part of the name which was never dropped.

Maybe someone can come up with more examples of sheri-names.
If it can be established that keeping this part of the name was the rule it can be ruled out that Ankhesenamun was in fact the bearer of the ta-sherit version.
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Anchesenamun Reply with quote

Which thankyou Naunacht reiterated, precisely. Ankhesenamun was in a more vunerable situation than Hatshepsut and presumably Sobekneferu, so Thieke's there's your answer as to why Ankhesenamun couldn't just simply "follow in the footsteps of the two women in her Thutmosid line".

The other female pharaoh i was talking about was not Sobekneferu but Neferneferuaton (who might have been Nefertiti, Meritaton or Nefernferuaton tashjerit). She reigned between Achnaton and Tutanchamun either before or after Smenkchkare. By the time Tut died im not sure many Egyptians would remembered a female reign by Hatchepsut but the reign of Neferneferuaton was only a decade before. She was either the wife or the daughter of the deceased Pharaoh and she reigned in her own right while there was a male grandchild of Amenhotep III and his Great Royal Wife Tiye available. She reigned about three years before she was succeeded (either by Smenkchkare or Tut).

The point im trying to make is this one: For Anchesenamun not to succeed her husband, to me indicates that the reign of Neferneferuaton was considered unsuccesful at the time of Tut's death. Considering the unheard of request the Royal widow made shows that another female monarch within a decade must have been even less likely to be accepted by the forces at power in Egypt at the time.
This all assuming it was Anchesenamun who wrote the letter and not her (grand)mother Nefertiti.

The parentage of the tashjerits is unclear. They could be daughters of Achnaton with either or both Meritaton and Anchesenpašton. They could also be the result of a match between Smenkchkare with Meritaton and/or Anchesenpašton.

It always comes down to the unclarity of the final Amarna years. We don't know who was alive and who succeeded who. These leaves so many potential options open that it is unclear to figure out who was who.

What we do know is that IF Anchesenamun was the mother of the two foetusses in Tut's grave she had a female line connecting her to Thuya other than through queen Tiye. So either Tiye had a sister or another female relation who married into the Royal line. The most likely candidate for that would be through Nefertiti as she never claims to be the king's daughter and is either the mother or grandmother (through first daughter Meritaton or third daughter Anchesenpašton the elder) of Anchesenamun.
As there is no evidence of another wife of Tutanchamun, Anchesenamun is the likeliest candidate to be the mother. So she is related to Thuya but not through Tiye in a female line, her mother or grandmother Nerfertiti must have been the daughter of Tiye's sister, aunt or the daughter of an aunt.

Still this is also just a theory as it seems unlikely that a Pharoah only had one wife and no harem.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aah memories this was my first post ever on here.

To reopen up this case. I think that it could be a possibility that Ankhesenpaaten-Tasherit was the daughter of one of Tutankhamun's aunts (likely Sitamun) and some unknown male.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:17 pm    Post subject: Sitamun Reply with quote

I don't think Sitamun is a candidate to be the mother of the young girls. It's not even clear if she ever was in Amarna and we only have evidence for the little girls there.
To the best of my knowledge they only appear in scenes made for Kiya and later reworked for Meritaten and Anchesenpaaten.
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Terrell0082
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Sitamun Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
I don't think Sitamun is a candidate to be the mother of the young girls. It's not even clear if she ever was in Amarna and we only have evidence for the little girls there.
To the best of my knowledge they only appear in scenes made for Kiya and later reworked for Meritaten and Anchesenpaaten.


This is true. But in my opinion Sitamun may been in the sidelines. I wonder what happens to Great Royal Wives other than the chief wife when a King dies. Idea

There is very little evidence of these girls yes indeed. But one has to ask the question as ro how old the Amarna Princesses were.

Ankhesenpaaten is always suggested to be two years older than Tutankhamun.but she is attested to be born in year 5 or 4 of Akhenaten thus making her about seven years older that Tut. If that was the case then Ankhesenamun can't be the older.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is all just simple questions that's all. I was wondering if Akhenaten and his main family members were intended to be in the Royal Cache where was Kiya intended to be buried
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