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Neferneferure-KV21A a lost Queen
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Neferneferure-KV21A a lost Queen Reply with quote

adding to the Theory of Neferneferure as Smenkhare's daughter I also think that she is the unknown female mummy KV21.

My theory comes from the fact that a small box with her picture on it was found amongst the treasure of Tutankhamen. Why would anything belonging to her be buried with Tut? Its unlikely the two would have known each other that is if she died around Y13 of Akhenaten that would mean that Tut would have been 1 when she died if he was born in Y12 of Akhenaten. That's not enough time to get to known someone, (plus who remembers family members at one anyhow)I think Neferneferure lived longer than that.

To stretch the my theory even further KV21A had clubbed feet which would have made it difficult for this individaul to walk, which to me rules this person out of being Ankhesenamun because in almost all her depictions she is seen standing and if she did had bad feet she would have at least be seen with a cane just like her hubby Tut. Neferneferure on the other hand is sometimes seen sitting down or not around at all.

Furthermore I think the marriage to Ankhesenamun was just so that she could help out her sister who couldn't walk. I think Neferneferure was Tut's true chosen wife to or unless she was jsut a secondary wife.

Finally, I do think that the KV55 is Akhenaten. I mean do we really know how old he was when he became Pharoah, NO. But unfortunately( to me) Neferneferure isn't the daughter of Akhenaten but Smenkhare.

As for KV21B could it be Nefertiti or Tey. it could be or this could be just a normal burial of a forgotten queen and her wet-nurse just like Hatchepsut and Sitre-In(not the mother of Seti I fokes, people often get those two mixed up)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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To stretch the my theory even further KV21A had clubbed feet which would have made it difficult for this individaul to walk, which to me rules this person out of being Ankhesenamun because in almost all her depictions she is seen standing and if she did had bad feet she would have at least be seen with a cane just like her hubby Tut. Neferneferure on the other hand is sometimes seen sitting down or not around at all.



As I was told Tutankhamun would have used the walking stick to represent power. Though now I think about it, were any other pharaohs actually ever depicted with a walking cane (other than the mysteries depiction who people claim to be Smenkhkare with Meritaten.) Other than Tutankhamun?



Quote:
Furthermore I think the marriage to Ankhesenamun was just so that she could help out her sister who couldn't walk. I think Neferneferure was Tut's true chosen wife to or unless she was just a secondary wife.


There is no evidence (I think) that shows King Tutankhamun ever married to Neferneferure. If he did marry Ankhesenamun to help his 'chosen' wife to walk, then he must have eventually taken a liking to Ankhesenamun, considering she is the woman he is most beautifully depicted with! Laughing



Quote:
Finally, I do think that the KV55 is Akhenaten. I mean do we really know how old he was when he became Pharoah, NO. But unfortunately( to me) Neferneferure isn't the daughter of Akhenaten but Smenkhare.


Oh how that statement can start a debate. Laughing

Quote:
As for KV21B could it be Nefertiti or Tey


If you mean Queen Tiye by Tey, then her mummy has already been indentified...
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It is of course the hieght of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers!

Quote 'Amarna Sunset' by Aidan Dodson.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'tiye' or 'tiye' is the wife of amenhotep III, 'tey' is the wife of ay. someone once said when hawass was looking at the kv 21 mummies, he was hoping to identify a wet nurse and her queen, ala hatshepsut and sitre in being found in the same tomb, kv60. except in this case, hawass was after tey and nefertiti......

siptah was shown perfectly healthy, and he had a clubbed foot. pharaohs deformities were never shown in art, there is no hint of buck teeth in any 18th dynasty depiction of the royal family. yet the entire dynasty seems to have had the trait.

the limited DNA for the kv 21 mummies shows they both had DNA in common with amenhotep III, meaning they may descend from him. but neither mummy appears to be the daughter of kv 55, which if they are daughters of akhenaten, then kv55 cannot be akhenaten.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Neferneferure-KV21A a lost Queen Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:


My theory comes from the fact that a small box with her picture on it was found amongst the treasure of Tutankhamen. Why would anything belonging to her be buried with Tut? Its unlikely the two would have known each other that is if she died around Y13 of Akhenaten that would mean that Tut would have been 1 when she died if he was born in Y12 of Akhenaten. That's not enough time to get to known someone, (plus who remembers family members at one anyhow)I think Neferneferure lived longer than that.





Just because there was a box with Neferneferure`s name and picture on it in Tut`s tomb does not necessarily mean that he liked or even knew her.

According to Reeve`s "The Complete Tutankhamun" there were among the so-called heirlooms one scarab and three vessels inscribed with Thutmosis III`s name whom he certainly never knew, and also quite a few items inscribed for Amenhotep III whom he almost certainly never knew and for Queen Tiye whom he only may have known in earliest infancy.

Sorry, but there is no solid basis for a connection between Tut and Neferneferure .
Some items just seem to have been kept in the royal family and handed down to its various members, apparently even spreading over different dynasties as the (box-, cane-?) knob with Aye`s name on it found in Nefertari`s tomb seems to show.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the presence of ay's name in nefertari's tomb on that knob could mean anything. his queen, tey could have been buried in the valley of the queens. it seems most likely that it is a piece of burial equipment that made it's way into her tomb when the robbery and salvage operations went on. maybe her tomb was a cache at some point.

then again, nefertari may have had a family connection with ay, though i don't see why she would have had anything confirming it......ramses was not fond of the amarna period.
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Neferneferure-KV21A a lost Queen Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Frater0082 wrote:


My theory comes from the fact that a small box with her picture on it was found amongst the treasure of Tutankhamen. Why would anything belonging to her be buried with Tut? Its unlikely the two would have known each other that is if she died around Y13 of Akhenaten that would mean that Tut would have been 1 when she died if he was born in Y12 of Akhenaten. That's not enough time to get to known someone, (plus who remembers family members at one anyhow)I think Neferneferure lived longer than that.





Just because there was a box with Neferneferure`s name and picture on it in Tut`s tomb does not necessarily mean that he liked or even knew her.

According to Reeve`s "The Complete Tutankhamun" there were among the so-called heirlooms one scarab and three vessels inscribed with Thutmosis III`s name whom he certainly never knew, and also quite a few items inscribed for Amenhotep III whom he almost certainly never knew and for Queen Tiye whom he only may have known in earliest infancy.

Sorry, but there is no solid basis for a connection between Tut and Neferneferure .
Some items just seem to have been kept in the royal family and handed down to its various members, apparently even spreading over different dynasties as the (box-, cane-?) knob with Aye`s name on it found in Nefertari`s tomb seems to show.


I mentioned all of that in my post you just restated an already asked question. Again why would anything of hers be found with his treasures? like i said there is no way the two would have known each other to that is if she died in Y12 or Y13 of Akhenaten.
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EgyptianRose wrote:
Quote:
To stretch the my theory even further KV21A had clubbed feet which would have made it difficult for this individaul to walk, which to me rules this person out of being Ankhesenamun because in almost all her depictions she is seen standing and if she did had bad feet she would have at least be seen with a cane just like her hubby Tut. Neferneferure on the other hand is sometimes seen sitting down or not around at all.



As I was told Tutankhamun would have used the walking stick to represent power. Though now I think about it, were any other pharaohs actually ever depicted with a walking cane (other than the mysteries depiction who people claim to be Smenkhkare with Meritaten.) Other than Tutankhamun?



Quote:
Furthermore I think the marriage to Ankhesenamun was just so that she could help out her sister who couldn't walk. I think Neferneferure was Tut's true chosen wife to or unless she was just a secondary wife.


There is no evidence (I think) that shows King Tutankhamun ever married to Neferneferure. If he did marry Ankhesenamun to help his 'chosen' wife to walk, then he must have eventually taken a liking to Ankhesenamun, considering she is the woman he is most beautifully depicted with! Laughing

Of course it wouldn't be any evidenc if she wasn't able to walk.



Quote:
Finally, I do think that the KV55 is Akhenaten. I mean do we really know how old he was when he became Pharoah, NO. But unfortunately( to me) Neferneferure isn't the daughter of Akhenaten but Smenkhare.


Oh how that statement can start a debate. Laughing

Quote:
As for KV21B could it be Nefertiti or Tey


If you mean Queen Tiye by Tey, then her mummy has already been indentified...


No i mean Tey the wife of King Ay the king after King Tutankhamen not his grandfather's wife.
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
'tiye' or 'tiye' is the wife of amenhotep III, 'tey' is the wife of ay. someone once said when hawass was looking at the kv 21 mummies, he was hoping to identify a wet nurse and her queen, ala hatshepsut and sitre in being found in the same tomb, kv60. except in this case, hawass was after tey and nefertiti......

siptah was shown perfectly healthy, and he had a clubbed foot. pharaohs deformities were never shown in art, there is no hint of buck teeth in any 18th dynasty depiction of the royal family. yet the entire dynasty seems to have had the trait.

Tell that to the elongated busts found in Armarna and the depictions of Akhenaten's daughters

the limited DNA for the kv 21 mummies shows they both had DNA in common with amenhotep III, meaning they may descend from him. but neither mummy appears to be the daughter of kv 55, which if they are daughters of akhenaten, then kv55 cannot be akhenaten.
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
kylejustin wrote:
'tiye' or 'tiye' is the wife of amenhotep III, 'tey' is the wife of ay. someone once said when hawass was looking at the kv 21 mummies, he was hoping to identify a wet nurse and her queen, ala hatshepsut and sitre in being found in the same tomb, kv60. except in this case, hawass was after tey and nefertiti......

siptah was shown perfectly healthy, and he had a clubbed foot. pharaohs deformities were never shown in art, there is no hint of buck teeth in any 18th dynasty depiction of the royal family. yet the entire dynasty seems to have had the trait.

the limited DNA for the kv 21 mummies shows they both had DNA in common with amenhotep III, meaning they may descend from him. but neither mummy appears to be the daughter of kv 55, which if they are daughters of akhenaten, then kv55 cannot be akhenaten.


Lol oops sorry about that but what about the art found in Amarna they are pretty detailed and even in them they don't show Ankhesepaaten with clubbed foot, so this again make me beleive that this is not her.

And as for KV55 situation we really can't tell for sure because still no little of Akhenaten himself.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry my mistake Embarassed Tey. As KyleJustin has already stated royal people close to the pharaoh weren't shown with deformities, they may have had and suffered or body features they did not want to be depicted with aka buck teeth, as already said...
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It is of course the hieght of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers!

Quote 'Amarna Sunset' by Aidan Dodson.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i do recall an offering stela from amarna, covered in ears? it has a crippled man offering to one god. he has a walking stick which he leaning on, and a leg resembling siptah's. but to my knowledge no members of the royal family were ever shown with a deformity, even in akhenaten's day.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
i do recall an offering stela from amarna, covered in ears? it has a crippled man offering to one god. he has a walking stick which he leaning on, and a leg resembling siptah's. but to my knowledge no members of the royal family were ever shown with a deformity, even in akhenaten's day.


I would love to see that, is it possible you can find it and post it on ED? Smile
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It is of course the hieght of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers!

Quote 'Amarna Sunset' by Aidan Dodson.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this it?
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It is of course the hieght of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers!

Quote 'Amarna Sunset' by Aidan Dodson.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, that's the one. i'm sure that comes from amarna, but i'm not 100%.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Neferneferure-KV21A a lost Queen Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:



I mentioned all of that in my post you just restated an already asked question. Again why would anything of hers be found with his treasures? like i said there is no way the two would have known each other to that is if she died in Y12 or Y13 of Akhenaten.


You`ve apparently missed my point.
I have tried to make clear that many items from Tut`s tomb that were inscribed with the names of more or less distant relatives were handed down to him because they were possessions of the royal family.
The fact that he cannot have known the distant relatives like Thutmosis III and A III shows that no personal attachments were required for this.

The same should be applied to Neferneferure`s box.

You on the other hand try to establish some romantic connection between them (chosen wife or else) solely on the ground of the presence of that box in his tomb.
This does not work out.
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