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Can you translate?
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right. I stand corrected. Thanks for the heads-up. I haven't tried to fuss with the line in which sw appears, and I should have paid better attention to the quotes from earlier posts.

Based on what was provided at the beginning, I don't see much else that would make sense for the one line for which I did attempt a translation:

"He gave magic [magic spells] to the ancient ones thereof the Black Land and the Red Land" (di.n=f hkau n isw kmt dshrt iry).

Although I must confess I'm still not comfortable with iry ("thereof" or "thereto"). This is my trying to force some sense into it. I'll have to return to my original argument: without seeing the hieroglyphs we're all just blowing hot air. Most of what this guy wrote is either out of syntax or just nonsense, it would seem.

How about you, Psusennes? Do you have a better idea what the line I attempted might mean?
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Psusennes
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks to me like someone with a dictionary and not much time flung it together to make an impressive-sounding signature. It's just a shame that people like us are actually able to read it and then scoff at it's foolishness. Oh well- I'm glad I was able to teach you a bit more about hieroglyphs, it's usually the other way around- everyone on these forums seems far more knowledgeable than me!

"He gave the ruler (hekau) in (isw?) Egypt and the Desert (iry?)"

if it were "imy" at the end then it could mean:

"He gave the ruler (isw?), which was in the desert"

I just need to know what "isw" means- I don't have a dictionary on me.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still learning all of it, so bear with me. If I hear any snickers I will know exactly why. :: laughs::
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, Psusennes. You seem pretty knowledgeable yourself. I've read many of your posts, and you're a productive part of this forum. I like how you approached the translation--I myself neglectd the "ruler" translation for hka and stuck to the more widely known "magic" or "magic spells." With the "u" (hkaw) it would indicate the plural form, so that's why I favored the magic aspect rather than "rulers," but now I think you may be onto something. Of course, according to earlier posts this guy we're all trying to figure out used the word "heqi," and I'm just not sure what that means.

As far as isw goes, it's commonly glossed as "ancient ones" or "ancient times," but it could mean something else entirely and we're all just missing it. It's still iry that perplexes me the most. I don't know what to do with it other than to try to use it in his confused word order.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would normally never mingle in a serious discussion about linguistics, but this sounds like it may have originally been put together by someone who didn't really know what they were doing.
So maybe the 'insight' of another person who doesn't know that much might be helpful?
When I look at 'iry' I think of "iry-pat" which means something like hereditary prince.

Could the person have thought that "isw kmt dshrt iry" meant something like 'ancient egyptian desert prince? (You might be giving the original author too much credit by looking for a 'honest' translation.)

Feel free to laugh your head if I said something stupid Laughing
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kmt_sesh
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's nothing stupid about what you wrote. You typically shed a lot of light into these debates. The most common term for "hereditary prince" is haty-a (the hieroglyphs are the forepart of the lion and the extended arm with hand, the Semitic ayin). This is an extremely common title in Egypt and often doesn't even have anything to do with true connection to the royal line. It is also used as the term for "governor" and "mayor."

I'd have to side with you, anneke, as to the validity of this guy's scribblings. He opened Faulkner's or (Lord help us) Budge's dictionary and tried to impress everyone.
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Psusennes
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hang on. . .perhaps he/she meant "iri" instead of "iry". "Iri" means make, do or act. It wouldn't make any sense to put a verb at the end of a sentence though. "Ir" means "if" though. And "is" means to go. But there is not a verb ending "-u". All very mixed up.

I'm not sure if there is much point trying to read into this ridiculous translation any more. Either it is just a vain attempt by somebody to try to sound fluent in Egyptian, or we just aren't clever enough to understand it. I'd like to think that it's the former. . . but you never know. Smile
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Psusennes
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grrr! I hate these idiots who learn the core alphabet and then jump into texts. Especially those who assume that the command of a few dozen glyphs will enable them to translate vast texts, and read and write Egyptians in minutes. It isn't just English in code. It's a beautiful, complex and fascinating language system.

I went on EgyptSearch (never to return!!) and found some person who was trying to read an Egyptian text using only a Budge's dictionary. Another classic example of this. Sad

I'm only glad that there are forums with people like Kmt_sesh and Anneke on them! Smile
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anneke
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the compliment Very Happy

I wonder if these people have ever tried to just use translation software to translate large texts from one language into another. That results in partial gibberish as well.
Any experience with languages at all should warn people that languages are difficult. Words can be used in slightly different ways, and translations can be subtle.
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isisinacrisis
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also find it irritating when people claim to 'know Egyptian' and pepper their websites with Egyptian words-without an English translation-that's what really annoys me, because it gives off this impression of the site owner thinking 'I know ancient egyptian, you don't, ha-ha!' and I happen to be one of those Egypt-maniacs who doesn't know a single word of Egyptian (apart from 'ankh', that's the only word I know) and most of the time they haven't studied the language, they just want to show off. I would love to learn Egyptian though-hieroglyphs, language, whatever. Even just a few basic words. I get so baffled with all the 'Egyptian' words they put on sites without translation...
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