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Kiya & The Death of the Younger Lady
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:34 pm    Post subject: Kiya & The Death of the Younger Lady Reply with quote

Okay, so we don't know who the younger lady is now. But we still can't throw away the assumption that she is Kiya due to the fact that she never had any references to Amehotep III, Akenaten's father. My thing is why would she keep those Titles? Assuming that she is Kiya I think once she became a queen there is no need to keep her foremr titles and names.

Its like i siad in another post of mine, I think everything that was associated with the previous king or Queen dies with that individual( but once again not literally) So her old names could've changed. We've seen it happen throught the 18th and 19th dynasties and earlier.

Kiya could possibly have been Nebetah. She and Bekenaten were the only ones of their sisters that didn't marry their father.

in the case of Tut's mother I think that his mom was Isis, the second daughter of AIII. I would rule out Bekenaten seeing that she was a young girl during the beginning of Tut's reign perhaps seven or 9 years old.

Now on the death of the Younger Lady. I think her death was no accident and that she was murdered . But by whom, my guess is between the High Priests of Amun and Queen Nefertiti. I still think that Nefertiti had a hand in the death of Tut's mother. Why? well because surely, she must have been fulyl aware of what would happen if Iset or any other queen would bore Akhenaten a son. I think Iset's presisences would ulitmately eliminated Nefertiti from her status as the Great Royal Wife, which makes me wonder if Queen Tiye arranged the marriage between her two children. Perhaps Nefertiti was frightened by this soon to be reality and sought that this enemy of her throne should be delt with.

which brings me to this conclusion about kv55. If this was smenkhare and not Akhenaten then it wouldn't have been an issue for Nefertiti simply because she was not married to him. So this mummy has to be Akhenaten.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

forensic evidence of the kv55 mummy shows a son of amenhotep III and tiye, father of tutankhamun by kv34yl, who is around 20 years old.

since akhenaten had a child by the 1st year of his reign, he has to be around 15 when he became king. add on 17 years, and you have a man in his mid 30's. so the body is not akhenaten.

as for queens giving up titles, ankhesenamun is the only who is proven to have ever done it- her father being who he was being the obvious reason. when the previous pharaoh died, his immediate family dynamics changed- the perception of who was royal changed slightly. but any women who were daughters, sisters, mothers or wives of a king quite happily paraded around with their titles, no matter which king was in charge.

so the fact that neither kiya or nefertiti have never used royal titles means exactly that- neither was royal by birth, but marriage.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
forensic evidence of the kv55 mummy shows a son of amenhotep III and tiye, father of tutankhamun by kv34yl, who is around 20 years old.

since akhenaten had a child by the 1st year of his reign, he has to be around 15 when he became king. add on 17 years, and you have a man in his mid 30's. so the body is not akhenaten.

as for queens giving up titles, ankhesenamun is the only who is proven to have ever done it- her father being who he was being the obvious reason. when the previous pharaoh died, his immediate family dynamics changed- the perception of who was royal changed slightly. but any women who were daughters, sisters, mothers or wives of a king quite happily paraded around with their titles, no matter which king was in charge.

so the fact that neither kiya or nefertiti have never used royal titles means exactly that- neither was royal by birth, but marriage.


Please tell me where did you get the age of Akhenaten when he came to the throne because I'm having a really hard time trying to find it. How do we know how old Akhenaten was when he came to the throne I don' think it was found in stone his exact age.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Kiya & The Death of the Younger Lady Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
But we still can't throw away the assumption that she is Kiya due to the fact that she never had any references to Amehotep III, Akenaten's father. My thing is why would she keep those Titles? Assuming that she is Kiya I think once she became a queen there is no need to keep her foremr titles and names.

Its like i siad in another post of mine, I think everything that was associated with the previous king or Queen dies with that individual( but once again not literally) So her old names could've changed. We've seen it happen throught the 18th and 19th dynasties and earlier.


Well, Tiye kept her titles of Great Royal wife after the death of Amenhotep III, as did Ahmose Nefertari, who was still described as the Royal Wife and King's mother long after she (and her husband) were dead, and Merytre-Hatshepsut is named GRW in a scene with her son Amenhotep II. And Tiaa and Isis first show up as great royal wife *after* the death of their husbands! So dropping the titles would have been unexpected.

And people did not usually change their names at all. Some had epithets added: Nefertiti became Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti, Nefertari became Nefertari-Mery-en-Mut, but adding epithets is very different form completely changing a name. Even the renaming of Tutankhuaten and Ankhesenpaaten was a simple change from the Aten to Amen names. I cannot think of any other individual who reinvented themselves (or were renamed so completely by someone else) as the proposed change from Isis, Nebetah or something else to Kiya. That's quite drastic and I cannot think of a single other example where that happened.

Frater0082 wrote:

Kiya could possibly have been Nebetah. She and Bekenaten were the only ones of their sisters that didn't marry their father.

There's also Henuttaneb.
I find the name change a bit of a problem. But the Queenly title Kiya held: hemet weret aat is also translated as great royal wife. So maybe she was of higher rank that sometimes given credit for? I find it odd Kiya's name does not appear in a cartouche though. That counts against Kiya being royal to me. Sitamen, Isis and even Henuttaneb had their names placed in a cartouche during the reign of Amenhotep III.

Inscription from Soleb (Lepsius made a copy error in the name of Henuttaneb)


Frater0082 wrote:

in the case of Tut's mother I think that his mom was Isis, the second daughter of AIII. I would rule out Bekenaten seeing that she was a young girl during the beginning of Tut's reign perhaps seven or 9 years old.

I had wondered about that as well. It is a bit strange though that she would have been so invisible during the reign of Akhenaten.

Frater0082 wrote:
I still think that Nefertiti had a hand in the death of Tut's mother. Why? well because surely, she must have been fulyl aware of what would happen if Iset or any other queen would bore Akhenaten a son. I think Iset's presisences would ulitmately eliminated Nefertiti from her status as the Great Royal Wife, which makes me wonder if Queen Tiye arranged the marriage between her two children. Perhaps Nefertiti was frightened by this soon to be reality and sought that this enemy of her throne should be delt with.

I think that no matter what, Nefertiti lost by the fact that she did not have a son. It is true that the mother of the new pharaoh would likely expect to play a more important role (like Merytre Hatshepsut, Tiaa and Tiye before her), but just simply killing off the mother of the heir does not guarantee a position of power. On the other hand being the killer of the next king's mother would not exactly put her in a place where she should be expecting to be embraced by forementioned young pharaoh.
Not sure but if someone murdered my mother, I would be trying very hard to make her life a living hell, and maybe kill her, not allow her to play the role of mentor. It's true that a young king might be manipulated and may not have a lot of choices. But I would not necessarily want to be around when he got his feet under him under those circumstances!

Frater0082 wrote:
which brings me to this conclusion about kv55. If this was smenkhare and not Akhenaten then it wouldn't have been an issue for Nefertiti simply because she was not married to him. So this mummy has to be Akhenaten.

Considering the long line of speculation that went before this, that's not very convincing to me personally.

Smile But I have wondered as well who would have been responsible for KV35YL's death - assuming she was killed.

It could actually have been Merytaten who had more to gain. Assuming KV 55 is Smenkhare, then if Merytaten had removed her rival she might have expected to bear a son to Smenkhare herself. After all they were both still young. In that case Tut would have just been another young prince in the harem and with the removal of KV35YL (whoever she may have been - maybe Nebetah) the road would be free and open for Merytaten to be the sole great royal wife. Or at least the highest ranking one.

This all reminds me of something I read about an inscription on the ceiling of the tomb of Panehesy in Amarna: Panehesy mentions receiving gold from the king for doing a great thing for his lady, the king's daughter.

Always found that odd. May be completely unrelated to the discussion, but still ... Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, the inscription in Panehesy`s tomb. Never heard of it before.
Is it part of an actual scene where he receives the gold of honour or is it rather an isolated inscription? I suppose the latter as they will not have placed a whole reward scene on the ceiling....

Anyway, I don`t think the great deed he did for the king`s daughter could have been anything unlawful or even a murder ( if that`s what you might have had in mind, anneke).
That`s not something to boast of or to remind the gods of, what tomb inscriptions usually were about.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually we have no idea how old Baketaten was. Her only known appearance is in reliefs dated to yr. 12 where she is depicted small but fully dressed, much the same as the three elder daughters of Akhenaten AND Nefertiti's sister Mutbeneret. Deducing age from monuments is decidedly tricky.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Kiya & The Death of the Younger Lady Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
Frater0082 wrote:
But we still can't throw away the assumption that she is Kiya due to the fact that she never had any references to Amehotep III, Akenaten's father. My thing is why would she keep those Titles? Assuming that she is Kiya I think once she became a queen there is no need to keep her foremr titles and names.

Its like i siad in another post of mine, I think everything that was associated with the previous king or Queen dies with that individual( but once again not literally) So her old names could've changed. We've seen it happen throught the 18th and 19th dynasties and earlier.


Well, Tiye kept her titles of Great Royal wife after the death of Amenhotep III, as did Ahmose Nefertari, who was still described as the Royal Wife and King's mother long after she (and her husband) were dead, and Merytre-Hatshepsut is named GRW in a scene with her son Amenhotep II. And Tiaa and Isis first show up as great royal wife *after* the death of their husbands! So dropping the titles would have been unexpected.

And people did not usually change their names at all. Some had epithets added: Nefertiti became Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti, Nefertari became Nefertari-Mery-en-Mut, but adding epithets is very different form completely changing a name. Even the renaming of Tutankhuaten and Ankhesenpaaten was a simple change from the Aten to Amen names. I cannot think of any other individual who reinvented themselves (or were renamed so completely by someone else) as the proposed change from Isis, Nebetah or something else to Kiya. That's quite drastic and I cannot think of a single other example where that happened.

Frater0082 wrote:

Kiya could possibly have been Nebetah. She and Bekenaten were the only ones of their sisters that didn't marry their father.

There's also Henuttaneb.
I find the name change a bit of a problem. But the Queenly title Kiya held: hemet weret aat is also translated as great royal wife. So maybe she was of higher rank that sometimes given credit for? I find it odd Kiya's name does not appear in a cartouche though. That counts against Kiya being royal to me. Sitamen, Isis and even Henuttaneb had their names placed in a cartouche during the reign of Amenhotep III.

Inscription from Soleb (Lepsius made a copy error in the name of Henuttaneb)


Frater0082 wrote:

in the case of Tut's mother I think that his mom was Isis, the second daughter of AIII. I would rule out Bekenaten seeing that she was a young girl during the beginning of Tut's reign perhaps seven or 9 years old.

I had wondered about that as well. It is a bit strange though that she would have been so invisible during the reign of Akhenaten.

Frater0082 wrote:
I still think that Nefertiti had a hand in the death of Tut's mother. Why? well because surely, she must have been fulyl aware of what would happen if Iset or any other queen would bore Akhenaten a son. I think Iset's presisences would ulitmately eliminated Nefertiti from her status as the Great Royal Wife, which makes me wonder if Queen Tiye arranged the marriage between her two children. Perhaps Nefertiti was frightened by this soon to be reality and sought that this enemy of her throne should be delt with.

I think that no matter what, Nefertiti lost by the fact that she did not have a son. It is true that the mother of the new pharaoh would likely expect to play a more important role (like Merytre Hatshepsut, Tiaa and Tiye before her), but just simply killing off the mother of the heir does not guarantee a position of power. On the other hand being the killer of the next king's mother would not exactly put her in a place where she should be expecting to be embraced by forementioned young pharaoh.
Not sure but if someone murdered my mother, I would be trying very hard to make her life a living hell, and maybe kill her, not allow her to play the role of mentor. It's true that a young king might be manipulated and may not have a lot of choices. But I would not necessarily want to be around when he got his feet under him under those circumstances!

Frater0082 wrote:
which brings me to this conclusion about kv55. If this was smenkhare and not Akhenaten then it wouldn't have been an issue for Nefertiti simply because she was not married to him. So this mummy has to be Akhenaten.

Considering the long line of speculation that went before this, that's not very convincing to me personally.

Smile But I have wondered as well who would have been responsible for KV35YL's death - assuming she was killed.

It could actually have been Merytaten who had more to gain. Assuming KV 55 is Smenkhare, then if Merytaten had removed her rival she might have expected to bear a son to Smenkhare herself. After all they were both still young. In that case Tut would have just been another young prince in the harem and with the removal of KV35YL (whoever she may have been - maybe Nebetah) the road would be free and open for Merytaten to be the sole great royal wife. Or at least the highest ranking one.

This all reminds me of something I read about an inscription on the ceiling of the tomb of Panehesy in Amarna: Panehesy mentions receiving gold from the king for doing a great thing for his lady, the king's daughter.

Always found that odd. May be completely unrelated to the discussion, but still ... Twisted Evil


Good points like them.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
kylejustin wrote:
forensic evidence of the kv55 mummy shows a son of amenhotep III and tiye, father of tutankhamun by kv34yl, who is around 20 years old.

since akhenaten had a child by the 1st year of his reign, he has to be around 15 when he became king. add on 17 years, and you have a man in his mid 30's. so the body is not akhenaten.

as for queens giving up titles, ankhesenamun is the only who is proven to have ever done it- her father being who he was being the obvious reason. when the previous pharaoh died, his immediate family dynamics changed- the perception of who was royal changed slightly. but any women who were daughters, sisters, mothers or wives of a king quite happily paraded around with their titles, no matter which king was in charge.

so the fact that neither kiya or nefertiti have never used royal titles means exactly that- neither was royal by birth, but marriage.


Please tell me where did you get the age of Akhenaten when he came to the throne because I'm having a really hard time trying to find it. How do we know how old Akhenaten was when he came to the throne I don' think it was found in stone his exact age.


We know that in the Karnak inscriptions of Year 1 that Akhenaten has already fathered a daughter, Meritaten, and that she was likely born before he ascended the throne (Smith and Redford 1976: 84).

For a king to reign 17 years and produce Daughter No. 1 by Year 1 of his reign, or before, argues than said king must be older than 20 years of age at his death, as a male cannot conceive children until a minimum of 12 years of age, when a male was considered 'adult' in ancient Egypt, but probably not able to produce children until 14 or older (Janssen and Janssen 2007).

This is a matter of simple mathematics and biology.

Reference:

Janssen, R. M. and J. J. Janssen 2007. Growing Up and Getting Old in Ancient Egypt. London: Golden House Publications.

Murnane, W. J. and C. C. Van Siclen 1993. The Boundary Stelae of Akhenaten. Studies in Egyptology. London: Kegan Paul International. (Note: Pace Smith and Redford (1976), the authors have a brief excursus about Akhenaten at his accession to kingship, rejecting the Smith/Redford arguments, which are based upon his daughters' appearances, by age. Murnane and van Siclen do not propose any specific age for the king, however.)

Smith, R. W. and D. B. Redford 1976. The Akhenaten Temple Project. Vol. I: Initial Discoveries. Warminster: Aris and Phillips.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless we get an actual name for the Younger Lady I still think she is Kiya one of Tiye's daughters just under a different name. Why would someone want to be called a pet or Monkey is beyond me but its just an an assumption of mine. But there has to bee some reason for Kiya's prominence I don't think she would get the Titles such as the "favorite" and the King's "Greatly Beloved" for just be being the prettiest or for whatever reasons she was dubbed "The Favorite". These titles must have *** Nefertiti off It would if I was in her sandals i'd probably would want to push the chick over the banaster if it was me.

Either way you look at the Younger Lady was killed for some apparent reason by some one and I doubt it was the High priests or some commoner, the way she was mutilated seems leans towards the idea that this woman was hated very much which could(COULD) possibly mean that their was some jealousy circling around the older woman of Amarna( Tiye, Nefertiti, and Kiya)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still believe that Kiya was one of the foreign princesses from the harem promoted to a special rank and, more specifically, Taduheba of Mitanni.

There are some evidences that can support it.

#the royal rank she got, Hmt nswt aat, is a quasi-synonym of the official title hmt nswt wrt, which could be an arrangement to fulfill the treaty with Tushratta, Taduheba's father, that his daughter would be a highest rank queen ("the Lady of Egypt" according to EA 20, 21 and 22), and not a secondary wife.

# Kiya was also refered as "Tashepset" (the noble lady"), which apparently was designed to foreign born royal wives. The title is repeated in a funerary cone from Thebes as "the noble lady from Naharina", which could be an allusion to Taduheba.

# Kiya apparently has a sunshade shrine as had Tiye both in Per-Hay as well in Maru-Aten indicating her important rank but, different from the other women with royal blood, she is not represented in tombs and in domestic shrines, what could be becaose of her foreign extraction, which was an impediment for being part of the official "pantheon".

# There is absolutely no evidence that could support the version of Kiya as having blood ties with the royal family.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
I still believe that Kiya was one of the foreign princesses from the harem promoted to a special rank and, more specifically, Taduheba of Mitanni.

There are some evidences that can support it.

#the royal rank she got, Hmt nswt aat, is a quasi-synonym of the official title hmt nswt wrt, which could be an arrangement to fulfill the treaty with Tushratta, Taduheba's father, that his daughter would be a highest rank queen ("the Lady of Egypt" according to EA 20, 21 and 22), and not a secondary wife.

# Kiya was also refered as "Tashepset" (the noble lady"), which apparently was designed to foreign born royal wives. The title is repeated in a funerary cone from Thebes as "the noble lady from Naharina", which could be an allusion to Taduheba.

# Kiya apparently has a sunshade shrine as had Tiye both in Per-Hay as well in Maru-Aten indicating her important rank but, different from the other women with royal blood, she is not represented in tombs and in domestic shrines, what could be becaose of her foreign extraction, which was an impediment for being part of the official "pantheon".

# There is absolutely no evidence that could support the version of Kiya as having blood ties with the royal family.


Where are you getting this from?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Kiya is Tadukhipa at all for the following reasons.

First off all records of Kiya began right after the Armarnas moved the captial to Akhenaten's city. Kiya is not attested the early part of Akhenaten's reign, but she may have been unless she changed her name I do see the possibility of AIII smelling Tadukhipa's hair and then changing her name to Nefertiti in from of a whole crowd stating that "the beautiful one as come" I don't think that Nefertiti was born with this name other wise her name would have been something like the " beautiful one has been born or something like that. Where could Nefertiti come from Akhim or Mittanni. I also don't think she's Ay's daughter because if she was it would have been a problem due to the fact that she was of non-royal birth. Tadukhipa came to the scene at the end of Amenhotep III's reign and then Akhenaten. to me this is also a perfect fit for Neferititi being Tadukhipa

I would think that if Kiya was around before she would have been in Nefertiti's position As Akhenaten's Great Royal Wife granted that she was his favorite and all.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kiya may simply have been the best *** akhenaten ever got. but the view she was a foreign princess, seems to fit well. her name is a nickname, or dimunitive, for something else, she is not on the scene straight away........she was not born an egyptian royal.

if ay is nefertiti's father, i doubt he is tiye's brother. he must have married her sister. DNA from thuya ended up in the babies from tutankhamun's tomb, and they didn't get it from him- or tiye. so the babies mother's mother's until you hit thuya is most likely the reason. or maybe a female member of thuya family- sister, maternal cousin etc. nefertiti was not born royal, and there is no evidence the king changed her name to nefertiti.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
Kiya is not attested the early part of Akhenaten's reign


Yes it could be possible, if the wine docket inscribed with her name the "Year ..6" is actually "Year 6" indeed instead of the alleged "16". Year 16 is a very high date for someone who vanished from the records before the year 14. If the year is 6, then yes, she is attested in the early Amarnian findings. Besides, absence of proof doesn't mean necessarily proof of absence.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:

Where are you getting this from?

KRAMER, Arris H. "Enigmatic Kiya", in A.K Eyma and C.J. Bennet (eds.). A Delta Man in Yebu: Occasional Volume of the Egyptologists' Eletronic Forum N 1. Parkland: Universal Publishers, 2003. pp.48-64
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