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Kiya & The Death of the Younger Lady
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the death of KV35YL. I am reasonably convinced that the damage to her face was the cause of her death and not caused post mortem by the tomb robbers. There also appears to be a very long laceration along her left side, too long for the usual cut to remove viscera. I never saw any discussion about this wound, for instance, was it pre-death or perhaps occured when her wrappings were being hacked off by the robbers.

Now, about how she received the terrible wound to her face. If, as is suggested further up this thread, she was murdered, thought should be given as to how this blow was delivered, and by what, and why. I would have thought that a palace murder committed by another queen/princess, would more likely involve poison, not a crude physical assault like this. The wound she received seems devastating, though it would not have neccessarily caused instant death. If you wanted somebody killed, then I think a blow somewhere on the cranium would be a surer way to make sure she was dead. Imagine, there she was laying on the ground/still in bed, perhaps still conscious and moaning. If you were the killer, and had not struck the blow you wanted, for whatever reason, would you not then strike a second blow to her head. Yet there is only the wound to her face. Then there is the question of the angle of attack by whatever struck her. If she were laying in bed at the time of this attack, then it is easy to see why the wound is configured as it is. If she were sitting or standing, then this wound becomes more problematical as being delivered on purpose, though not impossible of course. She would probably have been facing her attacker and may have been expected to make some effort to defend herself, the raising of her arms for instance, yet there seems to be no defensive wounds on her arms. As for what was used to inflict the wound, then I would have thought only an axe or a sword. Perhaps the documentary makers could do some experiments to see if AE axes or khepesh could inflict precisely this type of wound (probably). However, to me this scenario of her being directly attacked by some unknown murderer on the orders of some unkown person is too crude. I would like to see if a horses hoof could cause a wound like this. Any surgeons here to have an opinion?. Such an accident would probably happen too quickly for her to react, and would explain why a second blow was not deleivered, to make sure she was dead. As for the laceration, if it is such, on her side, I cannot offer any explanation other than rough treatment by robbers. My opinon is that she was not murdered and that she was possibly kicked in the face by a horse.
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I've mentioned numerous times here, I've seen, first-hand, how devastating a horse's kick can be. They are immensely powerful animals, a fact that is often lost on people who do not spend a great deal of time with them.

As I have also noted, survival is entirely dependent on the EMTs knowing enough to clear the throat & airways of blood, bone & teeth before the victim succumbs. That she died suggests either incompetence, ignorance, or a highly dangerous situation that made her recovery & treatment impossible.
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't see other threads specificaly about this. However, is her wound consistent with being hit by an unshod hoof, presumably at, or close to, a horses fullest reach with a backward kick, so the hoof hit her more like an edged weapon than a club?

And generally, is there any real doubt that she died because of an accident, and not murder, more interesting though that prospect is...
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
I didn't see other threads specificaly about this. However, is her wound consistent with being hit by an unshod hoof, presumably at, or close to, a horses fullest reach with a backward kick, so the hoof hit her more like an edged weapon than a club?

And generally, is there any real doubt that she died because of an accident, and not murder, more interesting though that prospect is...


From what I have seen of the pictures, she was hit in the maxillofacial area by blunt force trauma. A hoof, shod or not, hitting at the right angle, can carve a devastating wound in the face. It is possible that the AE doctors made a larger wound in a desperate attempt to save her life, but that doesn't mean they did.

Could the gash in her side be a result of the same accident? Absolutely. Horses really don't like stepping on people, and when they do they tend to jerk even more. She may have been kicked or trampled if she fell underfoot.

If it was something like an overturned chariot, she could easily have been mangled by a combination of hooves and splintered wood.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't think they can agree that the wound caused her death. as i remember, there was a lot of fuss about it being a post mortem wound, maybe in response to tomb robbery.
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
i don't think they can agree that the wound caused her death. as i remember, there was a lot of fuss about it being a post mortem wound, maybe in response to tomb robbery.


Usually when that happens, it's torn. Her face is peeled back, like the wound had adhered to the bandages & torn off when they were removed.
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read somewhere that Amenhotept III had a total of eight daughters is this true? and if so can either of them could have been Nefertiti or Kiya ?
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No
There is not evidence at all of Nefertiti and kiya being Amenhotep's daughters. Popular opinion has Nefertiti the daughter of Aye, but no concrete evidence has been discovered s yet.
Kiya, on the other hand, is quite a mystery. Her very name, "Kita" could have been just a nick-name! She may have been a inherited member of A III's harem, or perhaps a royal, Canaanite or Mitannian princess, thaken in marriage by AIII as a confirmation of a bounding between seperate nations, or again, just a noble Egyptian woman who caught the eye of the Pharaoh.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn`t it Kiya who was also designated "Lady (or Great Lady) of Naharina"?
If it was her this could point to her being of foreign origin.
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Osiris II
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This should all be taken with a grain of salt...I found it on Wikipedia:
The name Kiya itself is cause for debate. It has been suggested that it is a "pet" form, rather than a full name, and as such could be a contraction of a foreign name, such as the Mitanni name "Tadukhipa," referring to the daughter of King Tushratta. Tadukhipa married Amenhotep III at the very end of his reign, and the Amarna Letters indicate that she was a nubile young woman at that time.[4] In particular, Amarna Letters 27 through 29 confirm that Tadukhipa became one of Akhenaten’s wives. Thus some Egyptologists have proposed that Tadukhipa and Kiya might be the same person.[2]

However there is no confirming evidence that Kiya was anything but a native Egyptian.[5] In fact, Cyril Aldred proposed that her unusual name is actually a variant of the Ancient Egyptian word for "monkey," making it unnecessary to assume a foreign origin for her.[6]

In inscriptions, Kiya is given the titles of "The Favorite" and "The Greatly Beloved," but never of "Heiress" or "Great Royal Wife", which suggests that she was not of royal Egyptian blood. Her full titles read, "The wife and greatly beloved of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Living in Truth, Lord of the Two Lands, Neferkheperure Waenre, the Goodly Child of the Living Aten, who shall be living for ever and ever, Kiya." All artifacts relating to Kiya derive from Amarna, Akhenaten's short-lived capital city, or from Tomb KV55 in the Valley of the Kings. She is not attested during the reign of any other pharaoh.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's all relevant information, all current on kiya as well. for once, wikipedia is trustworthy.
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am having a problem with the fact that everyone is suggesting that Kiya was Tadukhipa. first off, if she was her then that means that Akhenaten and Nefertiti had already been designated to be King and Queen in which there is no evidence of.

Due to the relationship of Tushratta and Amenhotep III and IV, not to mention that AIII married Tushratta's sister Gilukhipa,(hense this marriage was for politcal reasons) Tadukhipa had to have been an very important figure roaming around Akhenaten's city heck even more so to be just a minor wife.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
I am having a problem with the fact that everyone is suggesting that Kiya was Tadukhipa. first off, if she was her then that means that Akhenaten and Nefertiti had already been designated to be King and Queen in which there is no evidence of.



Due to the relationship of Tushratta and Amenhotep III and IV, not to mention that AIII married Tushratta's sister Gilukhipa,(hense this marriage was for politcal reasons) Tadukhipa had to have been an very important figure roaming around Akhenaten's city heck even more so to be just a minor wife.


I don`t quite understand your problem. Why and when exactly do you think Akhenaten and Nefertiti had to be designated for kingship?

If one sees Tadukhipa and Kiya as two separate individuals then it is not surprising that one became prominent and the other, namely Tadukhipa, didn`t. It was not usually the case for foreign princesses to become important figures at the court. In fact, Gilukhipa and the other foreign brides of AIII are hardly heard of again after their arrivals in Egypt.

If on the other hand one equates Kiya with Tadukhipa we would probably have the first example of a foreigner to become as prominent as a secondary wife could at all.

So importance doesn`t really provide a clue to establish their identities.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if memory serves me correctly, the only foreign princess ever to hold the title of great royal wife before egypt's slide into decline and absorption into the various middle eastern and greek empires was a hittite princess whose original name is unkown, but ramses II called her maathorneferure.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lady could enjoy a certain social visibility without leaving a trace in the archaeological record. Gilu and Tadu could have partied with the Theban hot-set, been leaders of fashion and invited to all the big dos but their husbands did not chose to memorialize them in stone and so they are invisible three thousand years later. This could also explain the 'disappearance' of assorted royal ladies, Amenhotep III's daughters and Akhenaten's. With the death of their fathers they ceased to be members of the nuclear royal family and to figure on monuments. They might very well have continued to be prominent at court or in the provincial society of the estates or harem palaces they retired to.
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