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Queen Tiye vs Queen Nefertiti- Rivals in the royal palace

 
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject: Queen Tiye vs Queen Nefertiti- Rivals in the royal palace Reply with quote

To add on to my theory that Nefertiti might have killed the Younger Lady, queen Tiye's daughter. I don't think that Queen Tiye saw eye to eye with Neferititi. Why would Akhenaten marry own of his own sisters? Was there trouble within the royal house, these are questions we must ask

First off, I think anyone of Akhenaten's sisters were capable of knocking off Nefertiti off her throne. Granted that Tut's parents were full blooded brother and sister, to me, suggests that Akenaten or Tiy wanted to keep the Royal line full blooded which could also conclude that Nefertiti was not some relative of Tiy nor the daughter of Aye, if he was Tiy's brother and the son of her parents or siblings as some beleive.

So in that case, it is safe to assume that Nefertiti(not Kiye) is Tadukhipa the daughter of King Tushratta of Mittanni. I think that whomever said that Nefertiti skipped town back to her old Neighborhood was right.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember that AIII also had sisters, but married Tiye and, if KV55 is really Smenkhkare, we know that his GRW was Meritaten and not his sister KV35YL.There must be a special reason for late 18th dynasty pharaohs not promote their sisters as the GRW. Maybe a "Hatshepsut complex"? Or the abandonment of the Osiris/Isis standard?
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nefertiti has an egyptian sister, mutbenret. and if the ankhesenamun is the mother of tut's babies, then it is a sister of tiye that is most likely the line of descent from thuya to nefertiti and the babies, as the babies have inherited genes from thuya they did not get from tut's side.
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
nefertiti has an egyptian sister, mutbenret. and if the ankhesenamun is the mother of tut's babies, then it is a sister of tiye that is most likely the line of descent from thuya to nefertiti and the babies, as the babies have inherited genes from thuya they did not get from tut's side.


Oops i forgot about her sister Mutbenret.
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herper
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea of pharoah marrying sisters,and daughters
is the line of succession was through the females, and kept the royal line pure from the blood of mere mortals and commoners.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

herper wrote:
The idea of pharoah marrying sisters,and daughters
is the line of succession was through the females, and kept the royal line pure from the blood of mere mortals and commoners.


The line of succession was not through the females. That's an outdated idea that has been shown to be incorrect.

If anything the marriage to sisters and daughters seems to be more related to the religious aspects of royal life and the copying of the myths of Re and Hathor etc.

G. Robins, A Critical examination of the Theory that the Right to the Throne in Ancient Egypt Passed through the Female Line in the Eighteenth Dynasty. GM 62: pg 67-77

O'Connor and Cline (Editors), Amenhotep III: Perspectives on his reign, pg 6
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herper
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info. Time for me to rehit the books
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neseret
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
herper wrote:
The idea of pharoah marrying sisters,and daughters
is the line of succession was through the females, and kept the royal line pure from the blood of mere mortals and commoners.


The line of succession was not through the females. That's an outdated idea that has been shown to be incorrect.

If anything the marriage to sisters and daughters seems to be more related to the religious aspects of royal life and the copying of the myths of Re and Hathor etc.

G. Robins, A Critical examination of the Theory that the Right to the Throne in Ancient Egypt Passed through the Female Line in the Eighteenth Dynasty. GM 62: pg 67-77

O'Connor and Cline (Editors), Amenhotep III: Perspectives on his reign, pg 6


In her recapitulation of this problem, Robins clearly states the facts which are found in the documentation:

Not all kings marry women of royal birth, or have mothers of royal birth, and this makes no difference to the position of the king or his queens on the monuments. Indeed, with the presumably high rate of mortality, any form of inheritance which was rigidly formulated on the existence of a particular person would be impracticable. (Robins, 1983, 71 ff.).

See also on the rebuttal of the "heir princess" theory:

Gitton, M. 1984. Les divine éspouses de la 18e dynastie. Centre de Recherches d'Histoire Ancienne 61/Annales Littéraires de l'Université de Besançon 306. Paris: Les Belles-Lettres. (showing the title of "wife of the god" is a sacral title and does not relate to being an "heiress" to the throne.)

Mertz, B. 1952. Certain Titles of the Egyptian Queens and Their Bearing on the Hereditary Right to the Throne. Ph. D. Dissertation (Unpublished). Oriental Languages and Literature. University of Chicago. (Minute examination of all titles, historical and biographical accounts, etc. of queens and found no relationship alongst these to signify a "heiress" queen or princess.)

Robins, G. 1983. The God's Wife of Amun in the 18th Dynasty in Egypt. In A. Cameron and A. Kuhrt, Eds., Images of Women in Antiquity: 65-78. Cranberra: Croon Helm.

Troy, L. 1986. Patterns of Queenship: in ancient Egyptian myth and history. BOREAS 14. Uppsala: ACTA Universitatis Upsaliensis.

On the idea of a "heir princess/queen" Troy noted:

The position of the women of the royal family is interpreted as related to the line of succession to the throne. The king, it is surmised, must be the son of the woman whose status endowed his succession with legitimacy. A specified daughter of the king is designated the 'great wife' and regarded as the only legitimate bearer of the right of inheritance...This theory was tested by Mertz (1952, 167) in an examination of the titulary of queenship, concluding:

'...It is certain that the chief wife need not be an heiress princess, and if each king had an heiress wife in his harim, these women are not known.'
(Troy 1986: 104)

Troy concluded:

There is no documentary basis for the theory of the heiress princess as an element of a matriarchal [or matrilineal - KG] society. What has been perceived is, instead, the projection of the status of the royal women as complementary to their male counterparts. Their role is formulated to express the mythic function of the eye [of Ra -KG] as daughter and mother, as a medium of the continuity of the kingship. This is accomplished through the manipulation of the royal kinship designations. (Troy 1986: 104)

As to the idea of matrilineal inheritance, this is based upon a combination of facts and faulty reasoning. Troy cited the following examples:

a) maternal filiation found on the stelae of the Middle Kingdom;
b) the uncle-nephew conflict of Seth and Horus, suggesting descent
through the mother (1);
c) the posited transmission of the kingship through the wife of the
king as the royal "heiress", and
d) the high position (legal and culturally) of Egyptian women.


Troy's note:
(1) "The Mother's Brother in Ancient Egypt", E.Leach, Royal Anthropological Institute News, London, 1976 (pp. 19-21).

Troy found no evidence these issues caused a "matrlineal inheritance" aspect to kingship; rather the relationship of royal women to the king is far more complex. Troy proposes there are three types of royal women in relation to the king which are important: daughter, wife and mother. They are important for cultic and political reasons, but not as "heiresses."

Troy writes:

a) Daughter titles: /sA<t> nsw/ "daughter of the king from the first and second dynasties until its evolution to the term /sAt nsw nt Ht.f/ "daughter of the king's body", which indicated that hierarchies existed in the ranks of the title "daughter of the king", with individuals Such as Sitamun and Aahotep I given such titles as /sAt nsw wrt / "great daughter of the king" as a special status;

b) the progression of similar hierarchial status in the "wife" designations from /Hmt nsw wrt/ "great wife of the king" to the eventual use of the title /Hmt nsw wrt tpt n Hm.f/ "the first great wife of his majesty" in the Third Intermediate Period; and

c) the evolution of the titles of the mother of the king, beginning with /mwt nsw/ "mother of the king" to the Middle Kingdom designation of /mwt nsw-bit/ "mother of the king of Upper and Lower Egypt" to /mwt nsw n nsw-bit/ "mother of the king of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt". By the Eighteenth Dynasty, the reaffirmation of the importance of the king's mother showed again through the addition of the new titles, /mwt nTr/ "mother of the god" and /mwt nsw wrt/ "great mother of the king."


In all, these titles seem to imply that it was a hierarchy among royal women that seems to have indicated whose child was in line for royal
succession. Troy however, notes that the issue was far more complex:

...The organizational principles of such a system may be found in the individual status of the royal women as members of either the royal or other distinguished families. Traditionally, however, within the female collective, it is seniority which plays the largest part in determining the internal ranking of the members of the harem.
<...>
The use of seniority, the precedence given e.g. the mother of the king, as a factor in determining rank within the harem and in the formulation of queenship, follows this pattern.

The distribution of kinship designations repeats the theme of the generational sequence of daughter-sister-wife-mother. This sequence is a statement of social, as well as mythical, ranking. The advancement of favored royal women in the hierarchy of the harem, through generational roles representing the continuity of the life cycle, as the role of the mother is passed to the daughter, is juxtaposed to the mythic pattern, in the manipulation of the terminology of kinship.
(Troy 1986: 104-107; emphasis mine)

HTH.
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