Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Nefertiti
Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
khazarkhum
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 21 Mar 2012
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:52 pm    Post subject: Nefertiti Reply with quote

I had promised last spring I would publish my results after my sister was able to examine Nefertiti in Berlin.

Since then, two things have happened. One, her cancer has gone into remission; and two, I have developed a painful condition called neuropathy in my hands, making writing difficult.

This may run long, so you are warned.

My main concerns about the bust are the paint & plaster. How many AE monuments retain their formerly vivid pigments? In tombs, under reasonably constant environments, they may--and I stress may--stay vibrant & colorful. A quick look at Karnak tells you what happens when there is no protection. Abu Simbel still retains bits of color, but the rest is long gone.

Anything buried in the ground directly--like the bust--usually has its almost lurid color leached away. Note that this is primarily true of stone. Frescoes retain their color because of the way the pigments bind with the plaster.

Consider virtually every stone statue you know from AE. Many have traces of paint. How many excavated from the raw earth have ALL of their paint?

One. Nefertiti.

Well, maybe there was some peculiarity of the site where paint preserved. Fine. Why didn't it preserve on any other pieces?

For me, it's the paint job that makes Nefertiti different. The vertically-cut shoulders are not usually seen in AE. Busts aren't usually seen, for that matter; they seem to have liked their people whole, probably for reasons having to do with sympathetic magic. Consider how important it was for the body to enter the coffin intact; the same concept is at play. Amarna composites were just that--composites, where different parts could be attached to make a single figure.

Nefertiti is not one of those. She doesn't have the tenon needed for attachment.

So we have the odd vertical shoulder, the paint, the stylistic quibbles, and the missing eye.

It all comes down to the paint.

Take a look at her collar. Big deal, you say, Everyone wore collars.

Yes, they did, and they had certain rules for those collars.

Go look at it. I'll wait here.

Did you see it? No?

Okay, look at the row nearest her throat.

See it now?

I'll give you a hint.

No Egyptian collar ever has horizontal elements.

We're not talking about things like circles or squares or diamonds, which have no orientation. Things like flowers, drops and hieroglyphs are always orientated to vertical. Even hieroglyphs normally written horizontally are re-oriented to the vertical. The reason is, of course, technical: they can't be strung with rows of horizontal elements & hang properly. They have to fan out in order to drape over the neck and shoulders. Horizontal elements don't allow for that spreading; vertical ones do.

What are the odds?

What are the odds that a single statue, alone out of all the statues from AE, would retain its paint virtually intact, while having an extremely rare form, in an extremely rare--and most desirable to us--style, while wearing something that the AE never produced?

Here's what I think happened. Borchardt found the limestone core & decided to do something. He had the traces of paint on the original as a guide. He couldn't find the other eye, and he must have looked long and hard for it. He plastered the core & painted it, and when he left Egypt he sort of told the truth--it's plaster and you guys only want stone, right? From there it went to Germany, where several copies seem to have been made. Some years later it turns up in Berlin.

And that's where we are.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naunacht
Priest
Priest


Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 515
Location: U.S. NJ

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hoo boy. If you're right this could make alot of people really upset. Especially certain museum officials in Berlin.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ikon
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 194

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the paint and such I cannot say, though that this one piece is so well preserved is somewhat remarkable...

About the collars there seems some ambiguity. Many representations clearly show only vertical elements. Though many are not so well detailed and show what appear to be solid bands except for the lower/outer band, which is always vertical. I cannot post a photo at this time, though I'm sure all have a picture of Nebamun hunting in the marshes. The inner row of elements on his collar could be vertical or horizontal. Another example is the collar on the coffin of Maakara, presumed daughter of high priest Pinudjem I. The inner band of this collar is vertical oblong blocks composed of small horizontal elements. This is followed by six bands that seem composed of horizontal blocks, and the outer band of the usual vertical pendants. I am not certain that horizontal bands would not hang correctly, if they were not to wide. The depiction of the collar on the Nefertiti bust is not so well detailed, more broad strokes than fine detail, so perhaps we do not see what was the reality.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vangu Vegro
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 05 Nov 2009
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I think you're jumping to conclusions about Nefertiti's collar.
Several pieces of jewelry (such as the body armor, mummy bands and the heart scarab's chain) from Tutankhamun's tomb use the chevron pattern from Nefertiti's collar's top row (though, in all fairness, mostly vertically), and some coffins incorporate similar patterns in their collars (the famous coffin of Isis from the Deir el-Medina tomb of Sennedjem, for instance, has no less than five rows of a very similar pattern in its unusually large collar).

Sure, the pattern isn't exactly common, but since it does occasionally appear on objects whose authenticity is beyond doubt, it's no reason to dispute the authenticity of the Nefertiti bust.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
khazarkhum
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 21 Mar 2012
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vangu Vegro wrote:
Yeah, I think you're jumping to conclusions about Nefertiti's collar.
Several pieces of jewelry (such as the body armor, mummy bands and the heart scarab's chain) from Tutankhamun's tomb use the chevron pattern from Nefertiti's collar's top row (though, in all fairness, mostly vertically), and some coffins incorporate similar patterns in their collars (the famous coffin of Isis from the Deir el-Medina tomb of Sennedjem, for instance, has no less than five rows of a very similar pattern in its unusually large collar).

Sure, the pattern isn't exactly common, but since it does occasionally appear on objects whose authenticity is beyond doubt, it's no reason to dispute the authenticity of the Nefertiti bust.


On the coffin of Isis, the chevrons are laid in rows, not curves. The curved sections are all vertical elements. It looks a lot like Tutankhamun's corselet, actually.

Nefertiti's collar is one of those little details that add to the whole. Her eye makeup, for instance--the kohl liner is not carried out to the side with any of the fullness seen at the eye itself. Her makeup is thus not formal, divine or normal, but extremely unusual, and not seen in any other representation of Nefertiti.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
khazarkhum
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 21 Mar 2012
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
About the paint and such I cannot say, though that this one piece is so well preserved is somewhat remarkable...

About the collars there seems some ambiguity. Many representations clearly show only vertical elements. Though many are not so well detailed and show what appear to be solid bands except for the lower/outer band, which is always vertical. I cannot post a photo at this time, though I'm sure all have a picture of Nebamun hunting in the marshes. The inner row of elements on his collar could be vertical or horizontal. Another example is the collar on the coffin of Maakara, presumed daughter of high priest Pinudjem I. The inner band of this collar is vertical oblong blocks composed of small horizontal elements. This is followed by six bands that seem composed of horizontal blocks, and the outer band of the usual vertical pendants. I am not certain that horizontal bands would not hang correctly, if they were not to wide. The depiction of the collar on the Nefertiti bust is not so well detailed, more broad strokes than fine detail, so perhaps we do not see what was the reality.


Consider a few things here.

I have made quite a bit of jewelry, including these collars, and can tell you that in order to get the correct drape, horizontal elements must have varied spacers. Otherwise they become a solid band that doesn't properly flex. Egyptian collars are required to flex if they are to cover the throat and shoulder.

Let's go back to her shoulders, shall we? Or rather, the lack thereof. Of the few AE 'busts' we have, this is the sole piece with vertically-cut shoulders. Why do they not follow the usual path and round down to the upper arm? Every other AE 'bust' does so. This is more of what would be seen in an academic setting from the late 19th C.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Vangu Vegro
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 05 Nov 2009
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khazarkhum wrote:

On the coffin of Isis, the chevrons are laid in rows, not curves. The curved sections are all vertical elements. It looks a lot like Tutankhamun's corselet, actually.


Okay.

How about the British Museum coffin of Harsinakht then? That's definitely chevrons in a curve there.

Anyway, even if (and that's a big if) Egyptian collars could never have had horizontally-aligned sections like this in real life, painted depictions of Egyptian collars certainly could, so once again, the configuration of Nefertiti's collar is no valid reason to cast doubt on her authenticity IMO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
EgyptianRose
Scribe
Scribe


Joined: 08 Mar 2012
Posts: 251
Location: Australia. Down Under.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it not already proven that the bust of Neferteti, is not a fake?
_________________
It is of course the hieght of irony that, after this intensive campaign to expunge them from the annals of Egypt, the Amarna pharaohs are today probably the most recognized of all the country's ancient rulers!

Quote 'Amarna Sunset' by Aidan Dodson.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
anneke
Queen of Egypt
Queen of Egypt


Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 9305

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Considering how rare it is to find items from a sculptor's workshop, the issue about the shoulders does not raise much of an eyebrow for me.
There are actually other examples of sculptor models that show this feature. See for instance this model for a royal bust from Greco-Roman times.
So to me that's a non-argument.

For as far as the painting and details of the collar goes? I think declaring something a fraud based on that seems a bit thin to me. It's only the chevron type row at the top that looks a bit different, and I do not see that as a problem. There is a Nubian period collar showing a top row that does not look like Nefertiti's but does show some variety in the way that "rows" are shaped.
Amanishakheto collar
And there is such a thing as artistic license, especially when it comes to Amarna Art.
_________________
Math and Art: http://mathematicsaroundus.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3758
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The stucco applied to the sandstone core of the bust that took up the color has very specific chemical properties that are detectable only for stucco from the Amarna period. This could Ludwig Borchardt not know or falsify. Also the used colors are from the time of the 18th Dynasty, samples were found.

The bust is clearly a model for producing the actual statues and portraits. The second eye was never inserted, there is no trace of adhesive detectable. The model bust of Akhenaten found in the same room has the same shoulder shape. Not the body or necklace was important for this kind of statue, only face and headdress.

Lutz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
khazarkhum
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 21 Mar 2012
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vangu Vegro wrote:
khazarkhum wrote:

On the coffin of Isis, the chevrons are laid in rows, not curves. The curved sections are all vertical elements. It looks a lot like Tutankhamun's corselet, actually.


Okay.

How about the British Museum coffin of Harsinakht then? That's definitely chevrons in a curve there.

Anyway, even if (and that's a big if) Egyptian collars could never have had horizontally-aligned sections like this in real life, painted depictions of Egyptian collars certainly could, so once again, the configuration of Nefertiti's collar is no valid reason to cast doubt on her authenticity IMO.


My hands are killing me today, so I will try to answer as many posts as possible with this one.

Those other chevrons are narrow, almost arrowhead in shape. Nefertiti's are very wide and thus harder to shape to a curve.

But there's other things, too; the chevrons are only a part of it. Intact coloring is so extraordinarily rare that it alone should have set off warning signals. And then there's the question of damage. What's usually damaged? The nose. What is broken here? The ears. If it had fallen face forward, there should be more damage to the painted surface of the face.

Coloring: Yes it is the 18th D palette. Not common knowledge for the layman, but for an archeologist who was himself a gifted artist it would be known. The plaster coating from Amarna? Using the materials sourced locally would match anything ancient. I do not know if the Ashmolean frescoes are the same composition as the 'masks'.

Dating: It is not possible to date when something was carved unless there are exterior effects found, such as Desert Varnish.

Shoulders: Yes, they are Greek & Roman. The Western art tradition since the Renaissance has followed those styles. AE art, however, predates them.

Unless there are other Akhenatens found by Borchardt, the ones I am aware of are either truncated at the neck with no shoulders or have horizontal shoulders.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
neseret
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khazarkhum wrote:
[Those other chevrons are narrow, almost arrowhead in shape. Nefertiti's are very wide and thus harder to shape to a curve.


Khazarkhum has also brought this up on another list, so I will repost my reply from there to here:

I question your assumptions here. You seem to think that simply because the top row of Nefertiti's broad collar shows a horizontal design element, that this makes the piece "un-Egyptian," and possibly a fake or altered artefact.

Au contraire.

There are a number of examples in Egyptian art of this same design feature to the top portion of the broad collar, and the laying of beads horizontally around an actual broad collar necklace is also to be found in the archaeological record. To your main objection, I submit these two examples:


The necklace of Nefertari as shown in her tomb in the Valley of the Queens. Note the similar horizontal design to her broad collar as found on the Nefertiti necklace.

and


The necklace of King Amenophthis, 21st Dynasty, found at Tanis, with horizontal perforated cylinders of gold with dentated edges meshing together with chevrons of imitation lapis lazuli.

The idea of using cylindrical beads in a horizontal design on the Egyptian broad collar can be traced back to at least the Middle Kingdom, and most likely earlier. Here is an earlier example of the uppermost row of cylindrical beads being strung horizontally on the broad collar of Princess Ita-weret, daughter of Amenemhat II of the 12th Dynasty:


Broad Collar of Princess Ita-weret, 12th Dynasty. Aldred (1971) indicates this collar was worn in life as well as part of the princess' funerary jewelry

So, I am at a loss of how you can say that a necklace, particularly the broad collar, is limited only to a bead design in a vertical manner.

While it is true that the overall bead design of the broad collar shows beading vertically, one cannot claim that simply because there is a horizontal bead design to the top of the collar, this makes any such object a false Egyptian antique, or an altered artefact.

There are any number of representations of the /wsxt/, as the broad collar was called, that do show horizontal beading, particularly in the uppermost rows. It is possible that using horizontal beading at this point possibly strengthened the overall collar and distributed the weight of the succeeding vertical bead rows that followed.

Reference:

Aldred, C. 1971. [i]Jewels of the Pharaohs: Egyptian Jewelry of the Dynastic Period
. New York/Washington: Praeger Publishers.

Andrews, C. 1990. Ancient Egyptian Jewellery. New York: Harry N. Abrams.

Vilímková, M. 1969. Egyptian Jewellery. London: Paul Hamlyn.

Wilkinson, A. 1971. Ancient Egyptian Jewellery. Methuen's Handbooks of Archaeology. London: Methuen and Co., Ltd.[/i]

I think there is sufficient evidence to indicate that the horizontal chevron design is attested both in artistic representations of the /wsxt/ collar, as well as on actual examples of the collar itself.

HTH.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3758
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khazarkhum wrote:
... Coloring: Yes it is the 18th D palette. Not common knowledge for the layman, but for an archeologist who was himself a gifted artist it would be known. The plaster coating from Amarna? Using the materials sourced locally would match anything ancient. ...

Then Borchardt would thus solve the problem of time travel? ---> C 14 dating of the stucco and colors ...

Lutz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Meretseger
Priest
Priest


Joined: 02 Jan 2010
Posts: 588

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The stucco and paint has been dated by C14?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3758
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes.

Lutz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11  Next
Page 1 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group