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Nefertiti
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Staatliche Museen zu Berlin - Neues Museum - Exhibition to mark the anniversary of the discovery of the bust of Nefertiti on 6 December 1912 :

In the Light of Amarna - 100 Years of the Find of Nefertiti

Fri 7 December 2012 - Sat 13 April 2013

The model bust of Akhenaton (which was apparently deliberately destroyed in ancient times) found by Borchardt in the same room as the bust of Nefertiti is currently being restored in the workshops of the Berlin Museum for this exhibition:

Lippen für Echnaton ("Lips for Akhenaten").

Greetings, Lutz.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, gosh. I definately got to be there!
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That looks like a brilliant exhibition, Lutz. I hope they publish a book on it in English. Are you planning to go?
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Yes.

Lutz


I'm assuming then they must have had some organic ingredient because I thought C14 only worked on once living materials? Of course there are ways of testing stone for age too I believe.

If the paint and plaster have been proved ancient that ends the matter doesn't it.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
... I hope they publish a book on it in English. ...

I think / hope there will be a catalog, which are then usually is multilingual. But I'll remember and will post here about it.

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
...Are you planning to go?

Is the pope catholic ? Cool

I still have in plan to go to Egypt for 2 weeks in November. But this will depend on the situation there. In December I'm probably with some certainty in Berlin and normally the members of the "Verein zur Förderung des Ägyptischen Museums Berlin e. V." can visit exhibitions already a day before official opening...

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There will be a catalog with 320 pages (250 illustrations) in German and in English, price 24,95 € + shipping :

Im Licht von Amarna - 100 Jahre Fund der Nofretete

He will appear in December 2012, probably with the opening of the exhibition.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note that Akhenaten`s bust is cut horizontally under the upper arms.
This makes Nefertiti`s vertical cuts stand out more.

Is there any indication that representations of females were designed in this manner?
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel that the evidence supporting the claim that the bust of Nefertiti is a fake is a bit thin. As Neseret has shown horizontal figurative elements were not so very uncommon in the depiction of the broad collars or even in the real article. And, although I suppose this could be argued, the fact that these sculptures were the artist's (the master sculpture, Thutmose) private, working models, and not official state iconography - in other words not meant to be seen outside of the sculpture's studio where they were found - means that any deviation from the official parameters dictating state art are irrelevant. Remember, he had many other plaster casts, the like of which were never seen before or since; sample faces, half heads, ect. The images discovered in his studio are wholly unique and I think it may be a bit of a red herring to attempt to compare them to any official art meant to be observed by the general public. There is also the style to consider. If you look at the link Lutz posted you will see about three different Nefertiti busts/heads which appear to be attributed to Thutmose's workshop. The stylistic simarlarities are quite marked. And while it's certainly not impossible to copy another's style (some of these heads may indeed be copies of the master) to do so with such masterful spontaneity would be remarkable indeed. Look at all the copies of the bust today - very few, if any, actually capture the original article. Given that Lutz claimed that there had been c14 dating done on the pigment (both gesso and tempra contain organic elements, egg, milk, insome cases bone meal) I think we can consider the bust an exception to the rule of state sponsored art in ancient Egypt because of context; these were the sculpture's personal references, not meant to be viewed by anyone outside of his studio. I only wish we could get such a fabulous view into more ancient artists' studios! While "her" state of preservation is remarkable it isn't actually as complete as some photos lead you to believe. When I saw her for myself I was somewhat surprised at how doctored many of the photos are. The blushing dusky skin you see in the popular pic is a bit misleading. She looks truly ancient in person, beautiful, but ancient.
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologize for being so long away. I have fairly severe asthma, and when it decides to attack I just lie down.

The biggest issue is indeed the vertically-cut shoulders. This is unknown in AE sculpture prior to Nefertiti, and is unknown afterward until very late, when outside influences had affected the art. Yes, there are composite pieces where there is a vertical cut, but there is also a join in evidence. That is not the case here.

The Akhenaten Lutz posted has the typical AE arrangement for shoulders: rounded down to the horizontal plane. As stated earlier, the AE seem to have shied away from anything depicting people as anything but whole. Even the 'ancestor busts' from the OK are abstract humans, stylized versions of the Seated Scribes.

We know that the bust was altered with plaster, and as I have said it would have been sourced locally to Amarna. What many people fail to realize is that artists have long known about the peculiar qualities of pigments and supplies found in specific areas of the world. Anyone wishing to create an Amarna piece found in situ would know to use local pigments & plaster.

Which, BTW, are not datable with any degree of accuracy.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Modern carbon dating is, actually, pretty accurate. Radiocarbon dating can only be done on Matter that was once living. The inert mineral elements of the sculpture are not what is dated, rather the organic ingredients used as binders for (possiblely) the plaster, being bone meal in some cases, and egg and plants used in making the pigments. These would have been collected in antiquity and could be easily dated using radiocarbon dating.

The only people who seriously debate the usefulness of radiocarbon dating are religious Creationists who have an obvious agenda.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nuclear/cardat.html

http://***/half-life/

http://***/half-life/
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
Modern carbon dating is, actually, pretty accurate. Radiocarbon dating can only be done on Matter that was once living. The inert mineral elements of the sculpture are not what is dated, rather the organic ingredients used as binders for (possiblely) the plaster, being bone meal in some cases, and egg and plants used in making the pigments. These would have been collected in antiquity and could be easily dated using radiocarbon dating.


Yet it is still a destructive test, and one that, for various reasons, is not always anywhere near accurate. Any repairs, restorations etc can skew results. So can various types of contamination. Cleaning solutions, exposure to fire, handling by people can all affect the results as well.

Most AE pigments were ground stone.

There are some promising new mass spectrometry tests being done, but these are still in their infancy.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yet it is still a destructive test, and one that, for various reasons, is not always anywhere near accurate. Any repairs, restorations etc can skew results. So can various types of contamination. Cleaning solutions, exposure to fire, handling by people can all affect the results as well.


There is no doubt that contamination is a real issue but if a good sample can be gotten then the results of the test can be very accurate.

Quote:
Most AE pigments were ground stone.


The majority of pigments in Ancient Egypt were derived from minerals, crushed and powdered for use with suitable binders such as egg yoke or tree gum(gum arabic).* These binders are necessary for the minerals that make up the pigments to be held in solution. In other words, without the organic binder the minerals would fall to the bottom of the mixture and not adhere to the surface of the object one wished to paint. This organic matter is what is dated - as well as any sort of air borne organic material, such as pollen grains, ect.


*The Blackening of Paint Containing Egyptian Blue
Vincent Daniels, Rebecca Stacey, Andrew Middleton
Studies in Conservation, Vol. 49, No. 4 (2004), pp. 217-230
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Ankhetmaatre"]
Quote:


There is no doubt that contamination is a real issue but if a good sample can be gotten then the results of the test can be very accurate.




That is a very, very big IF.

This is not a pristine piece directly from a properly documented site. This is a piece which has a highly troubling history, from the vague & contradictory statements regarding its discovery, to how it managed to make its way into Germany, to why it languished in a private collection for so long. With so much national pride at stake, I doubt it will ever be subjected to tests it cannot 'pass'.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even with the plaster-stucco surface and its coloring removed (if they are modern) it is STILL a striking and important piece and perhaps even more significant given the imperfect, flaws and all nature of the limestone under-bust. I suggest the Berlin Museum consider *that*, and the possibility that the stucco might prove ancient after all.
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khazarkhum
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Even with the plaster-stucco surface and its coloring removed (if they are modern) it is STILL a striking and important piece and perhaps even more significant given the imperfect, flaws and all nature of the limestone under-bust. I suggest the Berlin Museum consider *that*, and the possibility that the stucco might prove ancient after all.


There is no question it is still a fine piece. The counterbalancing involved with the headpiece alone is exceptionally well-handled. Whoever did the plasterwork was quite gifted.
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