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father-daughter dyads

 
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Padese
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:04 am    Post subject: father-daughter dyads Reply with quote

Hi all,

I need help regarding father-daughter pair statues in ancient Egypt. can anyone suggest an example or perhaps a reference.

many thanks in advance
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may be an example from the time of Amenhotep III. The piece is located in Switzerland, in the collection of George Ortize. It is a statue made of serpentine, formerly about 65 cm high. Received are parts of the body of a daughter of Amenhotep III., identified by inscriptions on the back as "Daughter of the King" and "Royal Wife" Isis. From the queen head, right hand and left foot are missing. From the king only the right foot is obtained. The king is on the left of Isis. This could mean, to his left once another queen stood (Teje?). If so, it would be a triade of course ...

See Christine Strauß-Seeber : Die Königsplastik Amenophis III. - [München, Univ., Diss., 1978]. - München, 1997. - VIII, 331 p. (vol. 1) ; pp. 332 - 644 (vol. 2). - on pp. 439 - 441, with additional references for the object.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Padese
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks, Lutz but does this mean that the depiction of father-daughter in sculpture is some how rare in ancient Egypt?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Padese wrote:
Many thanks, Lutz but does this mean that the depiction of father-daughter in sculpture is some how rare in ancient Egypt?

I cannot answer that at the moment. I have just scrolled the catalogues with royal statues, which are in my private library. For more I don`t have the time in the moment, sorry. Maybe in some weeks ... When this is not to late for you.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still looked up on the CD-ROM of the "Annual Egyptological Bibliography" and found the following that could help you with your question::

FEUCHT, Erika : Das Kind im Alten Ägypten. Die Stellung des Kindes in Familie und Gesellschaft nach altägyptischen Texten und Darstellungen. - Frankfurt - New York : Campus Verlag, 1995. - 610 p., fig., ill., tables. - ISBN : 3-593-35277-X.

Here especially chapter 8 :

Quote:
"Anhand von schriftlichen, bildlichen und figürlichen Quellen aus zweieinhalb Jahrtausenden v. Chr. betrachtet Verfasserin in 11 Kapiteln die Stellung des Kindes in Alten Ägypten im weitesten Sinne. ...

... Kap. 8, Darstellung von Eltern und Kindern: 1, Privatplastik von Eltern und Kindern (Ehepaar mit 1-3 Kindern, oder ein Elternteil mit Kind im A.R.; Familiengruppen aus dem M.R., und von der 18. Dynastie bis zur Spätzeit; Beziehung zwischen Eltern und Kindern bei der Privatplastik). Kap. 8/2, Darstellungen von Eltern und Kindern im Privatrelief: Beziehung zwischen Eltern und Kindern im Flachbild des A.R. (Vater oder Ehepaar mit Kindern); Sonderformen der Beziehung zwischen Eltern und Kindern im Flachbild des A.R. bis N.R. im Privatbereich. Kap. 8/3, Rundplastik von Königen mit Kindern ohne Ausdruck einer Beziehung zueinander im A.R., M.R. und Zweiten Zwischenzeit, und N.R. (die 18. Dynastie bis zur Zeit Amenophis' III.; Amenophis IV.-Echnaton; die Ramessiden). Kap. 8/4, Rundplastik von Königskindern in enger Beziehung zu Eltern; 8/5, Königskinder im Flachbild; 8/6, schriftliche Erwähnung von Königskindern bei Ereignissen am Hof; 8/7, Filiationsangaben in Beischriften zu Darstellungen und in Texten (Verhältnis zum Vater oder zur Mutter (zA(t).f/s) im Grab des Vaters, bei Königskinder, und bei Prinzessinnen und bürgerliche Frauen; Verhältnis zu den Eltern (ms[w/wt].f/s); weitere Arten von Filiationsangaben). ...

... Kap. 11, Zusammenfassung; Anhang I-II: Abbildungen in Gräbern von Vater/Ehepaar mit Kind oder Kindern; Indices (Allgemeiner Index; Könige/Königinnen/Prinzen/ Prinzessinnen; Privatpersonen; Götter/Göttinnen; Ortsnamen; ägyptische Wörter); Bibliographie."


Translation by machine... :

Quote:
"On the basis of written, pictorial and figurative sources from two and a half millennia BC, author in 11 chapters considered the position of the child in old Egypt in the broadest sense." ...

... Chp. 8, Representation of parents and children: 1, private plastic of parents and children (couple with 1-3 children or a parent with a child in the OK) Family groups from the MK, and from the 18th dynasty to the late period; (Relationship between parents and children at the private plastic). Chp. 8/2, Representations of parents and children in a private relief: Relationship between parents and children in the flat screen of OK. (father or married couple with children); Special shapes of the relationship between parents and children in the flat screen of OK to NK in the private sector. Chp. 8/3, Round plastic of Kings with children without expression of a relationship to each other in the OK, MK and Second Intermediate Period, and NK (the 18th Dynasty until the time of Amenophis' III.) Amenhotep IV-Akhenaten; (the Ramessiden). Chp. 8/4, Round plastic of servants in close relationship with parents; 8/5, Kings children in the flat-screen; 8/6, written mention of servants at events at the Court; 8/7, Filiation information shown to representations and texts (relationship to the father or the mother of (zA(t).f/s) in the tomb of his father, kings children, and Princesses and bourgeois women) Relation to the parents (ms[w/wt].f/s); (other types of filiation information). ...

... Chp. 11, Summary; Annex I-II: Pictures in graves of father / couple with child or children; Indices (General index;) Kings/Queens/Princes / Princesses; Private individuals; Gods/goddesses; Place names; (Egyptian words); "Bibliography."


MEYER, Christine : Zum Titel "Hmt njswt" bei den Töchtern Amenophis III. und IV. und Ramses' II. - In: SAK 11. - 1984. - pp. 253-263.

Quote:
"The title Hmt nswt borne by some princesses in the N.K. seems to suggest that they were married to their father. The author reviews the evidence and points out that in all cases Hmt nswt is preceded by sAt nswt. This sequence should be interpreted as a unity and translated accordingly as "daughter of the king and the queen". The alleged marriage of Amenhotep IV with his daughters Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaton is only based on the existence of their daughters of the same name (with the addition "the younger"). Since Meritaton and Ankhesenpaaton never bear the title Hmt nswt this marriage is wholly fictitious. However, the problem of the fatherhood of their daughters remains. Close examination of the evidence for these daughters reveals that they only occur in recarved texts. It is suggested that originally representations of the daughters of Kiya were intended, who were changed later into fictional daughters of Meritaton and Ankhesenpaaton."


Greetings, Lutz.
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Padese
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you so much Lutz for the effort. I appreciate it.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The work by Feucht I still have now. She gives examples from the OK and says on page 410 :
Quote:
"... Im Mittleren und Neuen Reich werden die Statuengruppen von Eltern mit Kindern seltener. Nur wenige Beispiele zeigen noch das nackte Kind; jetzt wird es üblich, die Kinder bekleidet und als kleine Erwachsene darzustellen. Gruppen, die nur den Vater mit dem Kind zeigen, verschwinden (eine Ausnahme bildet die Amarnagruppe von zwei Männern und einem Knaben, die auf Vorbilder des Alten Reiches zurückdeutet). Von jetzt an erscheinen immer beide Elternteile mit einem oder mehreren Kindern. ..."

Quote:
"... In the Middle and New Kingdom there are the sculptural groups of parents with children rare. Just only a few examples even just show the naked child; now it is usual, the children are dressed and presented as small adults. Groups that show only the father and the child, disappear (an exception is the Amarna - group of two men and a boy, that back points to examples of the Old Kingdom). From now on both parents appear with one or more children. ..."

If you need the examples from the OK let me know.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Padese
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again and indeed yes I would like the examples or perhaps where to look for any


Best Regards,
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Padese
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in fact looking for examples where the deceased is featured together with his adult daughter (i.e. the daughter is given title nbt pr)


thanks again.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because I think it can hardly be a coincidence that there was a nearly identical request over the EEF list, I suggest that I send you to the on EEF given email address from Feucht`s book a scan of the Annex I, a list of representations of fathers with children. An example in which the daughter is "nebet per" I could not find.

If you look for the theme father-daughter-marriages I still recommend as a start ...

MIDDLETON, Russell : Brother-Sister and Father-Daughter Marriage in Ancient Egypt. - In: American Sociological Review, New York - 27. - 1962. - pp. 603-611 :
AEB 63.0359 wrote:
With some other cultures Egypt shares the custom of consanguineous marriages. Royal consanguineous marriages are regularly met before the Roman Period and after this there is also increasing evidence for this practice among common people. Of all the explanations of the reason of the phenomenon given in course of time, here duly summed up with much useful bibliographical references, the author considers as most plausible that the practice enabled to keep the family property intact.

If you are not the person on EEF or prefer a different email address let me know by Private Message (PM) here over this forum or via my email address at EEF.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:



Quote:
"The title Hmt nswt borne by some princesses in the N.K. seems to suggest that they were married to their father. The author reviews the evidence and points out that in all cases Hmt nswt is preceded by sAt nswt. This sequence should be interpreted as a unity and translated accordingly as "daughter of the king and the queen". The alleged marriage of Amenhotep IV with his daughters Meritaten and Ankhesenpaaton is only based on the existence of their daughters of the same name (with the addition "the younger"). Since Meritaton and Ankhesenpaaton never bear the title Hmt nswt this marriage is wholly fictitious. However, the problem of the fatherhood of their daughters remains. Close examination of the evidence for these daughters reveals that they only occur in recarved texts. It is suggested that originally representations of the daughters of Kiya were intended, who were changed later into fictional daughters of Meritaton and Ankhesenpaaton."


Greetings, Lutz.


The suggestion that "sat" refers to both neswt and hmt nswt is quite interesting, although I believe it is not seen generally this way.

Wouldn`t there be a problem at least in Akhenaten`s case because he usually indicates his and Nefertiti`s parenthood by writing "sat nswt ..... ms n hmt nswt ....."?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
The suggestion that "sat" refers to both neswt and hmt nswt is quite interesting, although I believe it is not seen generally this way.

Wouldn`t there be a problem at least in Akhenaten`s case because he usually indicates his and Nefertiti`s parenthood by writing "sat nswt ..... ms n hmt nswt ....."?

I have the article and will look inside when I have the time ... But from feeling I would say no, as long both formulations are follow each other not in one and the same inscription?

Greetings, Lutz.
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