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New evaluation of the KV55 remains
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:14 pm    Post subject: New evaluation of the KV55 remains Reply with quote

I don`t want to annoy anyone but I brought this topic up for one specific reason.
I came across a passage in Barry Kemps new book on Amarna where he concerns himself with Akhenaten`s appearance and seems to be rather disconcerted about the identification of KV55 as Akhenaten (although he still favors him to be Tut`s father). He speaks of the likelihood that the remains are not his.

In a footnote he points to two essays in a journal called Anthropologie (BRNO) in its issue 48/2 (2010-11), the first being written by Eugen Strouhal
titled " Biological age of the skeletonised mummy from tomb KV 55 at Thebes (Egypt), 97-112, and the second being a comment on the former by C. Duhig, 113-115 titled "The remains of pharaoh Akhenaten are not yet identified".

It is not made clear whether another examination of the remains was carried out or if the evidence of previous examinations was re-assessed, but as it is pretty new stuff I think it could be rather interesting.

I have accessed the journal`s website but my search for the essays was unsuccessful (don`t know why).

Is there anyone out there who can get access to them?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ANTHROPOLOGIE - International Journal of the Science of Man

Coverage: 1923-1941 (Vols. I-XIX) & 1962-2012 (Vols. 1-49). - ISSN : 0323-1119. - 2010. - 48-2. - pp. 97–112:

Strouhal, Eugen : Biological age of skeletonized mummy from Tomb KV 55 at Thebes

Abstract wrote:
The on-going discussion by Egyptologists and anthropologists concerning the fate of Akhenaten's body, has allegedly been solved recently by his identification with the skeletonized mummy originally found in 1907, in the rock of Tomb 55 in the Valley of the Kings at Thebes (Hawass et al. 2010). By a meticulous re-examination of the male skeletal remains from tomb KV 55 by the author of this paper, a number of features demonstrate that his biological age at death was in the range of 19-22 years, strengthened by the complete absence of even incipient dental or osseous agedependent pathological changes. Since Akhenaten's reign was at least 17 years according to Egyptological sources, he could not have started to reign as a 2-5 year old child. On the other hand, his elder brother Smenkhkare, if he died as a 19-22 year old, could easily have reigned for 3 or more years. The striking resemblance of Tutankhamun and the man from KV 55 confirms highly probability of their brotherhood and the identification of the latter as Smenkhkare.

Greetings, Lutz.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that abstract makes no sense in the family tree haha. he says that akhenaten was the younger brother of smenkhkare, who he says is the kv 55 mummy. he then states amnkhkare and tutankhamun are brothers?

that can't make akhenaten tut's father. that makes him (tut) a son of amenhotep III and tiye.......

what i want to know, is why he agrees kv55 is smenkhkare, but doubts that kv 55 is tut''s father.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have contacted them to get access to the full article and I hope this will happen soon.
In the meantime the abstract gives at least some points of information.
Leaving the obvious confusion with younger/older brother aside, it first tells us that the writer has indeed carried out his own examination. This is rather interesting as I wouldn`t have thought that Hawass, wanting to have the last word on the matter himself, would have allowed another examination of the remains. Maybe he wasn`t in charge at the time the request was made.

Furthermore it indicates that the lack of wear of the teeth, basically ignored by Hawass`s team, is taken to be a reliable indicator of young age whereas the osteophytes of the spine are apparently believed not to be age-related.

The age range of 19-22 years is one of the lowest ever suggested.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually 19-22 is the age most usually given when a conclusion is drawn by proffessionals. it's usually the ones that have the need to prove akhenaten's remains have survived that quote higher estimates.

i always thought it was interesting though, that people always doubt the kv 55 mummies age, which is the same age as tutankhamun's remains, yet no one doubts tut wasn't 18.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
actually 19-22 is the age most usually given when a conclusion is drawn by proffessionals. it's usually the ones that have the need to prove akhenaten's remains have survived that quote higher estimates.

i always thought it was interesting though, that people always doubt the kv 55 mummies age, which is the same age as tutankhamun's remains, yet no one doubts tut wasn't 18.


Well, yes, they do: Tutankhamun's recorded age at death was more likely 19 years, according to Hawass, Gad, et al. 2010: 640. That makes the remains not the same age as KV 55, which is aged in the 20-25 range, with 19-22 being the lowest estimate.

The reason Tutankhamun's age is NOT questioned is due to long bone epiphysis: his bones show little evidence of epiphyseal closure. KV 55, OTOH, shows mixed closure, thus evidencing a later age at death. Full epiphyseal closure is usually attained by age 25-30, which is why you see some claim the KV 55 remains are 30 years old. However, most anatomical experts and forensic pathologists disagree, as the KV 55 remains are in the process of closure, thus arguing for an earlier age.

Reference:

Hawass, Z., Y. Z. Gad, et al. 2010. Ancestry and Pathology in King Tutankhamun’s Family. Journal of the American medical Association 303/7: 638-647.

HTH.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMG, Marianne Luban has popped the family of Tutankhamun into the popaffiliator online program (ethnicity predictor). It's wild! Why didn't somebody else think to do that sooner?

http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had completely forgotten, the article is in front of me in the meantime. Strouhals examinations were held on 23 & 24 February in 1998. More on occasion...

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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
OMG, Marianne Luban has popped the family of Tutankhamun into the popaffiliator online program (ethnicity predictor). It's wild! Why didn't somebody else think to do that sooner?

http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/


Because the whole question is a red flag politically speaking.

My personal phenotype is very Northern European but my ancestry includes persons from the Near East, Africa and South America. I wonder how I'd come out. And how my full brother who has a very different phenotype would be identified.

Can we accept that the AEs were *very* mixed with strong sub-saharan AND levantine infusions and that THEY DIDN'T CARE so why should we?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
OMG, Marianne Luban has popped the family of Tutankhamun into the popaffiliator online program (ethnicity predictor). It's wild! Why didn't somebody else think to do that sooner?

http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/


Because the whole question is a red flag politically speaking.

My personal phenotype is very Northern European but my ancestry includes persons from the Near East, Africa and South America. I wonder how I'd come out. And how my full brother who has a very different phenotype would be identified.

Can we accept that the AEs were *very* mixed with strong sub-saharan AND levantine infusions and that THEY DIDN'T CARE so why should we?


Why should we care about anything to do with them or their culture. If "Who were the ancient Egyptians?" wasn't a valid question nobody in microbiology would be addressing it and those who authored the recently published paper in the BJM would not have supplied the haplogroup of Ramesses III and Unknown Man E. Scolars have been speculating for many years on the ethnicities of Yuya and Thuya, for example. Were they wrong to care? In my opinion, getting the answers adds to the body of knowledge and can't be wrong. Are the modern people who spend money to find out their own haplotypes wrong to want to know? They're interested and satisfying curiosity is not evil. And I think it's looking even more complex than just sub-Saharan and Levantine infusions. But you don't have to care if you don't want to.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
OMG, Marianne Luban has popped the family of Tutankhamun into the popaffiliator online program (ethnicity predictor). It's wild! Why didn't somebody else think to do that sooner?

http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/


I thought haplotypes could only be determined based on Y-DNA for males and mtDNA for females.
How comes that she uses nuclear DNA for that purpose?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
OMG, Marianne Luban has popped the family of Tutankhamun into the popaffiliator online program (ethnicity predictor). It's wild! Why didn't somebody else think to do that sooner?

http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/


I thought haplotypes could only be determined based on Y-DNA for males and mtDNA for females.
How comes that she uses nuclear DNA for that purpose?


There were no haplotypes determined. The STRs [short tandem repeats of the autosomal DNA} are put into a program that looks at the numbers at each locus and matches them to various populations who register high with those numbers at the locus. It should be pretty accurate but the more numbers the better accuracy.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
... Can we accept that the AEs were *very* mixed with strong sub-saharan AND levantine infusions and that THEY DIDN'T CARE so why should we?

Well said, Meretseger. This can only be underlined... Cool

Greetings, Lutz.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope nobody thinks this is all about "were the ancient Egyptians black or white" and has no historical implications. I, for one, find it very interesting that the mother of Ramesses III shows an allele at at least one DNA marker that's hard to find in modern Egypt.
It made me think of the mummy of an unknown female, thought by some to be Queen Tawosret, but who was found, if memory serves (I plan to check) in part of a coffin of Setnakht. Maybe she was the mother of Ramesses III, instead, and now I am curious about her DNA. That's how Egyptology goes--one thing leads to another.

But if none of you are interested in the subject, that's all I'll say about it from now on.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
... But if none of you are interested in the subject, that's all I'll say about it from now on.

No, you missunderstood this. I am sure Meretseger and also I just want to express that we think it doesen`t matter from which so called "race" one is. Nobody wanted anything here insinuate to you. I'm just not really sure how far this method really says something about the origin of a person's immediate ancestors (first, second, third generation back)? But I have too little knowledge in this field.

Greetings, Lutz.
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