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Neferneferuaten Tasherit
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
There is no doubt in my mind that Akhenaten and Neferteti did greatly love one and other, despite Neferteti's titles being more traditional, intended to convey power and importance. Wouldn't that demonstrate on it's own that Akhenaten had a great fond or love for Neferteti? To allow her to have numerous important titles opposed to a few held by Queen Kiya who in fact was rarely mentioned or depicted.

Didn't Akhenaten in fact write a love poem about Neferteti?

Also, is it safe to say, though it was definitely an arranged and political marriage, that Ankhesenamun and Tutankhamun grew a great fondness for one and other? Considering their unique and affection showing depictions.


As for Ramses and Nefertari, I do agree with you, Sothis. After all he had many wives and many more children of that. Wink

As for Queen Tiye and Amenhotep III, I do not know.


I don`t know of any love poem for Nefertiti, but maybe someone else does.
My point with Kyia was that it is quite remarkable that with so few titles and being a secondary queen she made it at all into the archaeological record. Sure Nefertiti is depicted much more often than her but Kyia`s inclusion in some of the talatat scenes could mean that the Greatly beloved Wife Kyia really meant something to him personally.
After all, as we now seem to know, Nefertiti was around as GRW until late in his reign and Kyia was basically not needed to fill the space Nefertiti had left.

Also, I`m not sure if the many titles were given to Nefertiti are a sign of love or rather that Akhenaten found it wise to have an influential queen beside him. He had seen that his own mother and father had been a very strong team together.
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also the possibility that Akhenaten and Nefertiti were depicted together as a power couple because they were meant to (together) personify Shu and Tefnut. I have wondered if there was a religious reason besides a political one for the prominent role of the Great Royal wives.

There is the suggestion that the marriage to daughters (as described in O'Connor and Cline's Amenhotep) is part of that religious picture they were painting: The King as Re and the Queen and her daughters as aspects of Hathor. The depiction of A&N as Shu and Tefnut - and the children of the solar deity - is in the same vein.

The idea that Setepenre also died young comes (I believe) from the observation that she is missing from the mourning scenes for Meketaten in the royal tomb? In those scenes Meritaten, Ankhesenpaaten and Neferneferuaten-tasherit are the only sisters in attendance. And while the younger girls are present at the Durbar scene from year 12, their absence from this scene is thought by some to mean that they had died already.

Who knows, maybe you had to be a certain age to be an official mourner? Maybe it did mean they were not alive to attend.

For as far as the love matches go? I wonder if we are super-imposing modern notions love there. The king had several wives. There are other royal wives attested for Amenhotep III: Nebetnehat, Henut, Gilukhepa. And there is the amusing request that his proposed bride "not have a shrill voice" (or something to that effect) in his correspondence with a foreign ruler. LOL Someone with a shrill voice carping at him? Could that have been Tiye?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neferneferuaten tasherit and Sotenpre has to be the most mysterious persons in the armarna period. i personally believe that Nefeneferuaten Tasherit changed her name just like her big sister and she may have went unrecorded in the latters reign.
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Ankhetmaatre
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke:
Quote:
The idea that Setepenre also died young comes (I believe) from the observation that she is missing from the mourning scenes for Meketaten in the royal tomb? In those scenes Meritaten, Ankhesenpaaten and Neferneferuaten-tasherit are the only sisters in attendance. And while the younger girls are present at the Durbar scene from year 12, their absence from this scene is thought by some to mean that they had died already.


Also, don't forget about infant mortality. If we can agree that Nefertiti bore at least six children, which makes sense given about two years between births and her husband's reign of around seventeen years, statistically she would lose a third to half of the children she bore in their frist three years. Even in a royal household mortality among newborns would be quite high. The younger girls may have, sadly, been at the most vulnerable age around the time of the dubar when the plague struck - just coming off of nursing (three to five years in ancient cultures), yet not having a fully mature immune system.
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, don't forget about infant mortality. If we can agree that Nefertiti bore at least six children, which makes sense given about two years between births and her husband's reign of around seventeen years, statistically she would lose a third to half of the children she bore in their frist three years. Even in a royal household mortality among newborns would be quite high. The younger girls may have, sadly, been at the most vulnerable age around the time of the dubar when the plague struck - just coming off of nursing (three to five years in ancient cultures), yet not having a fully mature immune system.


I had always thought that the youngest girls may have possibly died due to their young and vulnerable age. Even more so now, that I now know that the plague coincides with the young girls precarious age . Which notably throughout history, there were, as you have already mentioned, a lot of infant mortality with in and out of the royal household.

Quote:
I don`t know of any love poem for Nefertiti, but maybe someone else does.


"The Hereditary Princess, Great of Favor,
Mistress of happiness,
gay with the two feathers,
At hearing whose voice one rejoices,
Soothing the heart of the King at home,
Pleased at all that is said,
The great and beloved wife of the King,
Lady of the two lands, Neferfefruaten Nefertiti,
Living forever."

Arrow
http://eddieporter.tripod.com/egypt1.htm

I am not sure, if one would consider this a 'love poem' as such, the translation on Wikipedia, makes it appear to be more of an end of an offering?

"…And the Heiress, Great in the Palace, Fair of Face, Adorned with the Double Plumes, Mistress of Happiness, Endowed with Favors, at hearing whose voice the King rejoices, the Chief Wife of the King, his beloved, the Lady of the Two Lands, Neferneferuaten-Nefertiti, May she live for Ever and Always…"

Yet, they still consider it to be a love poem?

Arrow http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Nefertiti

It's not that far down.
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those arent poems, but creative renderings of her titles.

The first one, from the site dedicated to love and romance, might be using the same source as the second but declines to say where the "poem" is from. It is similar, but her titles would be similar no matter where it is from.

The second link (to another link) claims the "poem" is a eulogy from one of the boundary stela - it doesn't say which one, but probably stela 'S'. Nefertiti was not dead when the stela was erected (Year 6) and it is very unlikely it would be recarved after she died. The "poem" ends with 'may she live forever and ever'. That was a beseechment for a long earthly life, not forever in the after life.

Stela S translation:
The leading woman of nobles, great in the palace,
perfect of appearance, beautiful in the double plume,
mistress of joy, united with favour,
whose voice people rejoice to hear,
great wife of the king, his beloved
mistress of the two lands, Neferneferuaten,
Nefertiti, granted life for ever and eternity.

It is poetic, but not a love poem.
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, I had a feeling after finding the "poem" that it was not in fact a love poem, especially as you pointed out, at the end of the second one, "may she live forever and ever", thank you once again for clarifying that.
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