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Neferneferuaten Tasherit
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Neferneferuaten Tasherit Reply with quote

Happy new years to you all its me again boy i havent been here in a whil lol. Anyways i wanted to make a topic on Neferneferuaten Tasherit because i dont think she died after Akhenaten died i believe that she changed her name completely possibly due to the priest not wanting to have anything associated with the Aten floating around i mean after all her big sister did. It could be possible that Neferneferuaten tasherit went unrecorded in Tut's reign possibly even her sisters; Meritaten,Neferneferure, and Sotenpre.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is some evidence that Neferneferure died. There is a funerary object with her name on it that was found in Amarna.

I have never heard of any funerary items belonging to Neferneferuaten tasherit being found.

Seems there is no evidence either way of what happened to her. During Tut's reign she might have just been regarded as a member of the previous generation of the royal family and hence not that important?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would have Neferneferuaten-Tasherit been more Tut's age opposed to Ankhesenpaaten? If so, wouldn't it have been more accepted that Tutankhamun marry Neferneferuaten-Tasherit rather than Ankhesenpaaten (who Tutankhamun was supposedly five or more years her junior)? Thus concluding that Neferneferuaten-Tasherit did die before Tutankhamun became to rule, because he married Ankhesenpaaten, not Neferneferuaten-Tasherit?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The marriage seems to be more for dynastic purposes and/or assuring Tut's right to rule than trying to make a love connection. In that case, the senior daughter would be the choice. Which in turn argues that Meritaten was dead by this time.

The practice of the elder daughter marrying first is not all that out of date. As late as the early 20th Century it was considered rude and almost unheard of for a sister to shame her elder sister by marrying before she did. It made the older girl look unwanted or undesirable. There are lots of movies from the 30s or so where the plot revolves around a younger sister deeply in love who cant get married because sis is not yet married. The younger sister then often plays matchmaker just so she herself can get married.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="VBadJuJu"]The marriage seems to be more for dynastic purposes and/or assuring Tut's right to rule than trying to make a love connection. In that case, the senior daughter would be the choice. Which in turn argues that Meritaten was dead by this time.

The practice of the elder daughter marrying first is not all that out of date. As late as the early 20th Century it was considered rude and almost unheard of for a sister to shame her elder sister by marrying before she did. It made the older girl look unwanted or undesirable. There are lots of movies from the 30s or so where the plot revolves around a younger sister deeply in love who cant get married because sis is not yet married. The younger sister then often plays matchmaker just so she herself can get married.[/quote] im not saying that it was anything like that all but to me it seems odd that all most of Ankhesenamun's sisters just died all at once. Maybe something will come out of the sands that will prove otherwise just like in nefertitis case now knowing she lived passed year 14 which most thought she didnt but foe now im just kick back and stay quiet
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I support what VBadJuJu has said about dynastic marriages. These marriages were political statements, not love matches, especially when the king was young. It was important that an appearance of strong familial support was behind a youthful monarch. Age would make very little difference. If the woman was within child bearing age - especially if her fertility was proven and her pedigree acceptable - then the match would be made. If she was ten years older would make no difference. In the case of Tutankhaten/amen the choice of his GRW was a hard bitten political decision, as he was practically a cradle king and the heir of, apparently, an extremely unpopular predecessor.

Even in the case of the few recorded love matches - a Akhenaten and Nefertiti or Ramasses and Nefertari, if the woman had not been acceptable politically its very unlikely that she would have ended up as GRW.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
I support what VBadJuJu has said about dynastic marriages. These marriages were political statements, not love matches, especially when the king was young. It was important that an appearance of strong familial support was behind a youthful monarch. Age would make very little difference. If the woman was within child bearing age - especially if her fertility was proven and her pedigree acceptable - then the match would be made. If she was ten years older would make no difference. In the case of Tutankhaten/amen the choice of his GRW was a hard bitten political decision, as he was practically a cradle king and the heir of, apparently, an extremely unpopular predecessor.

Even in the case of the few recorded love matches - a Akhenaten and Nefertiti or Ramasses and Nefertari, if the woman had not been acceptable politically its very unlikely that she would have ended up as GRW.


I didnt knew that piece of info and since you put like that Ankhesenamun seems reasonable seeming that she would be the next in line ad queen but im curious to know when did merytaten died
hey quick Question what if Mery wanted to continued her fathers teachings wouldnt. that decide her fate as queen what if wanted to follow in her parents footsteps
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Ankhetmaatre
I might put Amenhotep and Tiye in the Love Connection category too. Her parents were of some minor nobility, but he seems to have married her for his own reasons and not afraid to say so.

@Frater0082
Lots and lots of people started disappearing about year 13, not just the Akhenaten girls. We dont know when they died exactly, so it looks like "about the same time" from our distant perspective, but zoom in and they could have been spread across 5-7 years (and from different things e.g. Meketaten in childbirth)

Natural mortality meant you needed lots of kids just so a few made it to adulthood. Even in the middle ages, they wanted "an heir and a spare" male son(s) to increase the chance that one would live to inherit.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[b]VBadJuJu[b] said
Quote:
I might put Amenhotep and Tiye in the Love Connection category too. Her parents were of some minor nobility, but he seems to have married her for his own reasons and not afraid to say so.


Well, most Egyptologists believe that A111was between eight and twelve years old at his ascension and that the choice of Tiye had more to do with her parents obvious political clout (attested by the "marriage" scarabs). That he later came to respect her in her own right has more to do with the Lady's personal abilities than any romantic inclinations, IMO. Do they call A111 Amenhotep the Magnificent? What about Tiye the Magnificent? I think someone could write a very compelling thesis that Tiye was as least as responsible for the success of Amenhotep's reign as he was.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Frater0082, as VBadJuJu said, no one really l knows what became of Meritaten. We have no documentation about her after the reign of Akhenaten. It's as if she vanished - or at least that name seems to have.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
I think someone could write a very compelling thesis that Tiye was as least as responsible for the success of Amenhotep's reign as he was.

There was lots written along those lines years and years ago. Tiye was the reason A3 didnt go out on campaign like his forefathers: she would not let him. Her parents are on the scarabs because she insisted. Then she tried to dominate Akhenaten (Amarna Letter to her) Things along those lines, it made her sound domineering and controlling. Most is discarded now.

The scarabs though (all of them, lion hunt, marriage etc) are now thought to be retrospective based on some oddities common to all of them. They were issued later in his life and more or less all at once or maybe as a series to recall thrilling moments. The mention of her parents then, seems to me to be more touching and genuine as he already was The Magnificent by then and no longer really needed to acknowledge anyone for any reason.

I hadn't heard age estimates that low more like 16, but things like that change all the time (with her being older).

@Frater0082 IF (big if) Meritaten was King Neferneferuaten, then she preceded Tut on the throne and must be dead for him to reign. If she was queen to Smenkhkare as a successor to Akhenaten, she might have died from whatever killed him.

If Smenkhkare was just a coregent to Akhenaten with no sole rule then it appears that she survived him by a few years because she is later attested as GRW alongside Akhenaten and Neferneferuaten on a box in Tut's tomb. That is the last we see of her, but very likely dead by time Tut marries.

From all appearances, Atenism basically, collapsed without Akhenaten, so it is hard to say how anyone could continue it.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:15 am    Post subject: Conclusion. Reply with quote

I've concluded from all this, that prior to the reign of Tutankhamun, Meketaten had died, seeming there's evidence Neferneferure had died and
Quote:
The marriage seems to be more for dynastic purposes and/or assuring Tut's right to rule than trying to make a love connection. In that case, the senior daughter would be the choice. Which in turn argues that Meritaten was dead by this time.


making me assume that Meritaten had died. Which leaves only Setenpenre and Neferneferuaten-Tasherit to have possibly lived to at least to the start of Tutankhamun's reign.

Is there any evidence at all of the death of Setenpenre?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ankhetmaatre wrote:
[b]VBadJuJu[b] said
Quote:
I might put Amenhotep and Tiye in the Love Connection category too. Her parents were of some minor nobility, but he seems to have married her for his own reasons and not afraid to say so.


Well, most Egyptologists believe that A111was between eight and twelve years old at his ascension and that the choice of Tiye had more to do with her parents obvious political clout (attested by the "marriage" scarabs). That he later came to respect her in her own right has more to do with the Lady's personal abilities than any romantic inclinations, IMO. Do they call A111 Amenhotep the Magnificent? What about Tiye the Magnificent? I think someone could write a very compelling thesis that Tiye was as least as responsible for the success of Amenhotep's reign as he was.


just what I wanted to point out too.
In fact, Though I may appear very unromantic, I would put a questionmark behind the other "love marriages" too.

In Akhi and Nefertitis case there is, behind all the cuddly love and family scenes, at least one woman whose only important title was Greatly Beloved Wife, Kyia of course. nefertitis string of titles is much more traditional and intended to convey power and importance. i would put this marriage also in the category of arranged matches between a prince and a suitable noblewoman.

Ramses II seems to have loved Nefertari, for whom the sun shone, more than anything else.
But years later, when he first sees his Hitite bride who is to become his queen, he immediately loves her more than anything, too.
I get the impression that this kind of love is more a tool for the own self-glorification in terms that only women who are truely worthy of a great king become his wives than the real thing.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Ramses II seems to have loved Nefertari, for whom the sun shone, more than anything else.
But years later, when he first sees his Hitite bride who is to become his queen, he immediately loves her more than anything, too.
I get the impression that this kind of love is more a tool for the own self-glorification in terms that only women who are truely worthy of a great king become his wives than the real thing.


Interesting.

I was going to add that while very few marriages may have started as love matches, it may have been the hope that love would follow. Love does seem to have at least developed in the cases mentioned.

That was the view until fairly recently. The main qualification for a husband was can he provide; for the wife can she give you kids. After that hopefully love will follow, if not at least your primary need is taken care of.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no doubt in my mind that Akhenaten and Neferteti did greatly love one and other, despite Neferteti's titles being more traditional, intended to convey power and importance. Wouldn't that demonstrate on it's own that Akhenaten had a great fond or love for Neferteti? To allow her to have numerous important titles opposed to a few held by Queen Kiya who in fact was rarely mentioned or depicted.

Didn't Akhenaten in fact write a love poem about Neferteti?

Also, is it safe to say, though it was definitely an arranged and political marriage, that Ankhesenamun and Tutankhamun grew a great fondness for one and other? Considering their unique and affection showing depictions.


As for Ramses and Nefertari, I do agree with you, Sothis. After all he had many wives and many more children of that. Wink

As for Queen Tiye and Amenhotep III, I do not know.
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