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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBadJuJu wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
...you're still insisting the older methods are more reliable.
The better question is whom is most likely to do an exam and publish an unbiased report: A Brit (Filer: 18-21 yrs), a Czech (Strouhal: 19-22 yrs), an American (Baker: 18-23 yrs) or the head of the SCA who, for years, has made no secret of the fact that his pet theory was that KV55 is Akhenaten (25-40 years, or 35-45 or even 60).

The previous exams done over the last 100 years were all done with complete transparency. You can get Filer's radiographs and measurements and photos, for example, and review her results and conclusions. The Hawass exam only released their conclusions. The age range cited - one five times broader than Filer or Strouhal - sound more like a political compromise than a scientific conslusion. Shouldn't the CT be able to be at least as precise as in previous exams???

SidneyF wrote:
As if Hawass could control all doctors in Egypt and European scientists, with their own reputations to uphold!
He didn't have to "control all doctors in Egypt". He just has to be able to select who is to be on his team, and exert his (then) considerable influence in drafting the report.

No one doubts the Hawass study because he is Egyptian, but because there is cause to doubt it.


Agreed. Couldn't have put it better myself Smile
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I cut out a paragraph and as a result left the impression Baker examined the mummy. She didnt. She examined the reports, radiographs, measurements etc etc etc from Filer and others and wrote a rebuttal in the form of a letter to the editors of JAMA. Strouhal seemed similarly motivated. His results sat on the shelf until Hawass was published then specifically rebutted it:
"He did not possess the slightest dental pathology and not even the onset of degenerative changes in the spine and joints."

The single point Hawass and Selim noted was spinal degeneration. The magical CT scanner (it was the Deluxe Model) was apparently able to determine some degeneration was due to age and some due to scoliosis, but not able to narrow the age range to less than a decade and a half.
Laughing
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hawass and his 'experts' would have been trained in western universities anyway. vbadjuju is completely correct, it is hawass' behaviour over the years that puts doubt on the age he concluded. plus the fact the opinions and conclusions where the only bits released in the article, not all the full tests and their results.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBadJuJu wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
As if Hawass could control all doctors in Egypt and European scientists, with their own reputations to uphold!

He didn't have to "control all doctors in Egypt". He just has to be able to select who is to be on his team, and exert his (then) considerable influence in drafting the report. ...

Sure, it is possible to assume (but is not even rudimentary proven otherwise!) Hawass influence to the Egyptian members. However, absurd and completely beyond reality is it to do so as well for the international members. These men were long before the study internationally renowned experts on their territory. Her career was never dependent or influenced in some form by Hawass.

The signing of the JAMA - report they have certainly not made under duress. The risk of putting their own careers and their international reputation on play and to lose (just to please Hawass? why?) would just much too high. The idea is simple mischief, and contrary to common sense.

And bring their skills into disrepute by putting the term experts for them in quotation marks says many of the one who is doing so...

Lutz
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VBadJuJu wrote:


The single point Hawass and Selim noted was spinal degeneration. The magical CT scanner (it was the Deluxe Model) was apparently able to determine some degeneration was due to age and some due to scoliosis, but not able to narrow the age range to less than a decade and a half.
Laughing


And it wasn`t even thanks to the CT-scanner that this alleged degeneration or any other new finding for that matter was detected, and that is the real reason why in this case the scanning does not have to be given preference over other more conventional methods. It simply did not help.
The osteophytes of the spine were visible on mere visual examination, but for some obscure reason that eludes me only the members of Hawass` team were able to spot them. All the others experts in the field state that the bones do not show the slightest pathological changes.
Strouhal for example has noted the slightest beginning of osteophytes in a small bone of the foot, the calcaneus. If he was able to spot these, why should he have missed the ones in the spine, or why should he deliberately have ignored them?
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
The signing of the JAMA - report they have certainly not made under duress. The risk of putting their own careers and their international reputation on play and to lose (just to please Hawass? why?) would just much too high. The idea is simple mischief, and contrary to common sense.

And bring their skills into disrepute by putting the term experts for them in quotation marks says many of the one who is doing so...Lutz


you have such a black and white view of the world. it is simply not as simple as you are willing to believe.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
Lutz wrote:
The signing of the JAMA - report they have certainly not made under duress. The risk of putting their own careers and their international reputation on play and to lose (just to please Hawass? why?) would just much too high. The idea is simple mischief, and contrary to common sense.

And bring their skills into disrepute by putting the term experts for them in quotation marks says many of the one who is doing so...Lutz


you have such a black and white view of the world. it is simply not as simple as you are willing to believe.

And you're obviously the best person to judge this...

Lutz
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
[
Quote:
It is generally agreed that Smenkhkara married Meritaten - except by those who believe he never existed of course.


Why so? Is there any evidence suggesting that Smenkhkare married Meritaten?


The tomb of Meryre shows Meritaten at the side of a pharoah as his Great Wife. Her identity at least has never been questioned.

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Welcome to the Amarna Tarpits where no theory EVER dies and no evidence is EVER settled! Very Happy

aha thank you for the belated warning Laughing


Enjoy! Very Happy
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
I'm beginning to think there's some kind of national bias going on in the various posts. Is there supposed to be something wrong with Egyptian scientists as opposed to weatern ones? Then we get, "Well, Hawass influenced them all, told them what to say." As if Hawass could control all doctors in Egypt and European scientists, with their own reputations to uphold!


Please don't play the race card. When one gets ONE study producing results opposing those of EVERY previous study one has a right to be skeptical.
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
And bring their skills into disrepute by putting the term experts for them in quotation marks says many of the one who is doing so...
I did no such thing. I didn't even use the word expert(s).

Quote:
The risk of putting their own careers and their international reputation on play and to lose (just to please Hawass? why?) would just much too high.
Actually with the report citing '25-40' it gives anyone who disagreed 'plausible deniability' and why I called it a political compromise. The absurd age range allows any of the participants the ability to claim they were in favor of the lower range of 25 and not tarnish their reputation at all. It is how life works.

The only way any serious questions can ever be raised though would be if the underlying data were to be released so it can be subject to the scrutiny it deserves.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
I'm beginning to think there's some kind of national bias going on in the various posts. Is there supposed to be something wrong with Egyptian scientists as opposed to weatern ones? Then we get, "Well, Hawass influenced them all, told them what to say." As if Hawass could control all doctors in Egypt and European scientists, with their own reputations to uphold!


Please don't play the race card. When one gets ONE study producing results opposing those of EVERY previous study one has a right to be skeptical.


I don't see how I could possibly "play a race card" when I don't believe in the concept of "race", as I have already told you in reply to another of your posts where you brought up this outmoded term. While, evidently, you must believe that the Egyptians are of a certain "race". I do not.
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
I'm beginning to think there's some kind of national bias going on in the various posts. Is there supposed to be something wrong with Egyptian scientists as opposed to weatern ones? Then we get, "Well, Hawass influenced them all, told them what to say." As if Hawass could control all doctors in Egypt and European scientists, with their own reputations to uphold!


Please don't play the race card. When one gets ONE study producing results opposing those of EVERY previous study one has a right to be skeptical.


I don't see how I could possibly "play a race card" when I don't believe in the concept of "race", as I have already told you in reply to another of your posts where you brought up this outmoded term. While, evidently, you must believe that the Egyptians are of a certain "race". I do not.


If you don't believe in the concept of race, then what do you call a genetic cluster? A core principle in the concept of natural selection is genetic clustering. A race is a name applied to a genetic cluster. Subspecies is another name for the same.

In not believing the concept of race are you then denying basic biology?
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Human genetic clustering analysis uses mathematical cluster analysis of the degree of similarity of genetic data between individuals and groups to infer population structures and assign individuals to groups that often correspond with their self-identified geographical ancestry."

Do you see the term "race" in there anywhere?
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
"Human genetic clustering analysis uses mathematical cluster analysis of the degree of similarity of genetic data between individuals and groups to infer population structures and assign individuals to groups that often correspond with their self-identified geographical ancestry."

Do you see the term "race" in there anywhere?


You don't have to see the term "race" in the quote: the quote is itself a description of a race, or, species or subspecies (depending on application).

The quote defines what a genetic cluster is: race, sub-species, species, genre, are names applied to such clusters.

Mathematical equations of course, have the inherent weakness in that much of genetic characteristic is still, as yet, unmeasurable and hence, unable to be represented in mathematics (statistics).
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
I don't see how I could possibly "play a race card" when I don't believe in the concept of "race".


All right. Then don't play the Ethnicity card. This has nothing to do with nationality.
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