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All of Senenmut's Titles?
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Lavender
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:18 pm    Post subject: All of Senenmut's Titles? Reply with quote

Hi, everybody! I've mostly been in lurk mode of late, but I'm back with a question. Smile

I searched the forum archives but didn't find any list or link to a list of all of Senenmut's titles. I am looking for a comprehensive list of the titles he held, and, if known, the general order in which he received them. I know he was Steward to the God's Wife first (as far as I recall from research years ago) but what came after?

I didn't know which subforum to put this question in, either. I'm going with Pharaohs and Queens since apparently all of his titles came from Hatshepsut.

Thanks much!
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be interesting to know a majority of all 90 supposed titles, Senenmut inherited. Just adding my 5cents Smile
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See for that the fantastic page by Dr. Karl Leser (Iufaa) : Maat-ka-Ra Hatschepsut or direct to Senenmut .

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lavender
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent! thank you, Lutz!
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great site! Smile

Personally I've always found it touching how highly Senenmut seems to have valued his role as Neferure's 'tutor'. Taken together with his depiction of his pharaoh rather than his family at the Gebel Silesha shrine (the latter being usual) it suggests an old bachelor who had devoted himself to his queen and his princess as his family not an illicit lover.
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Lavender
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always thought the same, Meretseger. While touching, it doesn't make for intriguing enough fiction, so Senenmut-as-lover has always been the go-to scenario for writers. Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
See for that the fantastic page by Dr. Karl Leser (Iufaa) : Maat-ka-Ra Hatschepsut or direct to Senenmut .

Greetings, Lutz.


I was going to recommend that but Lutz beat me to it. Wink
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some very interesting works about Hatschepsut / Thutmosis II / Senenmut / Neferura in

Études et Travaux - ET XXI - Marek Marciniak : Un Souvenir. - Warschau : Zas Pan, 2007. - ISBN : 978-83-922319-1-2. - ISSN : 0079-3566

Barbara Switalski Lesko : Another look at Senenmut. - pp. 69 - 78,

Franciszek Pawlicki : Princess Neferure in the Temple of Queen Hatshepsut at Deir el-Bahari - Failed Heiress to the Pharaoh's Ihrone?. - pp. 109 - 127,

Zbigniew E. Szafranski : King (?) Neferure, Daughter of Kings Tuthmosis II and Hatshepsut. - pp. 139 - 150.

One of them discussed, if I remember correctly, also a possible paternity of Senenmut / Neferura.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
There are some very interesting works about Hatschepsut / Thutmosis II / Senenmut / Neferura in

Études et Travaux - ET XXI - Marek Marciniak : Un Souvenir. - Warschau : Zas Pan, 2007. - ISBN : 978-83-922319-1-2. - ISSN : 0079-3566

Barbara Switalski Lesko : Another look at Senenmut. - pp. 69 - 78,

Franciszek Pawlicki : Princess Neferure in the Temple of Queen Hatshepsut at Deir el-Bahari - Failed Heiress to the Pharaoh's Ihrone?. - pp. 109 - 127,

Zbigniew E. Szafranski : King (?) Neferure, Daughter of Kings Tuthmosis II and Hatshepsut. - pp. 139 - 150.

One of them discussed, if I remember correctly, also a possible paternity of Senenmut / Neferura.

Greetings, Lutz.


Thanks, Lutz, as always you are a wealth of information. I was trying to see if there was any way to access this on the site or buy a back copy of the issue but no luck. I'll put this on my wish list for my next trip to New York City.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had an idea ... How about if I send a copy of the articles as PDF to you, Naunacht, and also to Lavender and Meretseger? You could then present the content here together, and so more people here in the forum would have something from it. For example everyone of you could focus on one article? I just do not have the time and I am not so much a Hatshepsut groupy... Cool

Let me know what you three think of this.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lavender wrote:
I've always thought the same, Meretseger. While touching, it doesn't make for intriguing enough fiction, so Senenmut-as-lover has always been the go-to scenario for writers. Smile


In defense of fiction writers (Just to expose any conflict of interest, I'm working on an historical novel set in this period) it's perfectly acceptable for historical fiction authors faced with inconclusive and incomplete evidence, to go with whatever interpretation makes for the best story as long as it doesn't contradict known facts.

Let's face it, powerful queen meets gifted and talented commoner makes for pretty compelling fiction. Short of making Senenmut a classicly handsome man--there's fairly compelling evidence that he was not although you can probably get around it--a fiction author is within bounds making them lovers.

Serious historians have a very different standard, but for any historian trying to get from the "What Happened" to the "Why it happened" in ancient Egypt some speculation is inevetable. It shold be labled as such.

In my novel, my narrator, a doctor who eventually becomes physician to the king, knows Hatshepsut and Senenmut quite well, knows that there is a strong bond between them, but does not know if their relationship goes beyond a very close, working, friendship. Those very few who are in a position to know are not talking. Other people around him who are in even less of a position to know, are of course rather adament in their opinions on the matter one way or the other. At one point, after Hatshepsut's death, Thutmose III, who's looking for reasons not to marry Neferure, (I'm going with the Neferure outlives Hatshepsut theory) is going to ask my character whether Neferure was Senenmut's daughter as rumor has it and not the child of Thutmose II and my character is going to respond, honestly, that he cannot say for sure and that those who might have been in a position to know are dead.

Yeah, it's a bit of a cop out, but it may very well be the truth as experienced by someone in my character's position.

The problem is, in this case as in much of ancient Egypt, the evidence is incomplete and inconclusive. We know quite a bit about Senenmut but there are some pretty big gaps in our knowledge. Where there are gaps in our knowledge, incomplete and inconclusive evidence and all sorts of interesting and exciting interpretations, there is all sorts of room for speculation.

See the Armana Tarpits.

Maybe we should coin a new term, the Senenmut Sandtraps or Senenmut's Swamp.
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Lavender
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz -- you are so generous! Thank you; I really appreciate it. I'll give you my email address in a PM if you like.

Naunacht wrote:

In defense of fiction writers (Just to expose any conflict of interest, I'm working on an historical novel set in this period) it's perfectly acceptable for historical fiction authors faced with inconclusive and incomplete evidence, to go with whatever interpretation makes for the best story as long as it doesn't contradict known facts.


You don't have to defend fiction writers to me! I am one myself. Smile I have one novel out from the 18th Dynasty now, and I'm finishing up the next this weekend (not sure of the release yet, though...soon, but I still need to fiddle with it some.) A third will be out in the spring, and then I start tackling my big Amarna project. I'm glad to hear you're working on one, too! There is not nearly enough Egyptian historical fiction out there to satisfy me, and the 18th Dynasty is by far my favorite.

I agree that serving the story first is the the author's and readers' best interests. It's historical fiction, after all. Its primary goal is to entertain!

Quote:
Let's face it, powerful queen meets gifted and talented commoner makes for pretty compelling fiction. Short of making Senenmut a classicly handsome man--there's fairly compelling evidence that he was not although you can probably get around it--a fiction author is within bounds making them lovers.


It's kind of the classic exciting romance storyline, but with gender roles reversed. Irresistible!


Quote:
In my novel, my narrator, a doctor who eventually becomes physician to the king, knows Hatshepsut and Senenmut quite well, knows that there is a strong bond between them, but does not know if their relationship goes beyond a very close, working, friendship. Those very few who are in a position to know are not talking. Other people around him who are in even less of a position to know, are of course rather adament in their opinions on the matter one way or the other. At one point, after Hatshepsut's death, Thutmose III, who's looking for reasons not to marry Neferure, (I'm going with the Neferure outlives Hatshepsut theory) is going to ask my character whether Neferure was Senenmut's daughter as rumor has it and not the child of Thutmose II and my character is going to respond, honestly, that he cannot say for sure and that those who might have been in a position to know are dead.

Yeah, it's a bit of a cop out, but it may very well be the truth as experienced by someone in my character's position.


No, it sounds like a great plot! I'm excited to read it, so hurry up and finish it. Wink

Quote:

See the Armana Tarpits.

Maybe we should coin a new term, the Senenmut Sandtraps or Senenmut's Swamp.


Have you noticed that every fiction writer who even dips a toe into the ancient Nile gets sucked into the Amarna Tarpits? I tried to avoid them, and here I am, planning a fictional delving that rivals Wolf Hall (in my imagination, anyway. In reality, I will probably never writer as well as Hilary Mantel, but dang it, I'll try!) Amarna is just TOO full of juicy speculation for writers to resist. I think the Senenmut/Hatshepsut thing is the same way. It's just there in front of you, glowing all neon and shiny, shouting, "WRITE ME! WRIIIITE MEEEEE!!"

Naunacht, I'm glad somebody else here "gets" me. Wink How many of the rest of us are secretly writing fiction? I'm dying to know now. I should probably share with you secret fiction writers that my single Egyptian title sells well enough that I will be quitting my day job to write full-time in a few months here...readers are starving for good Egyptian fiction and will gladly read whatever they can find. It's a great time to be writing Egyptian novels!
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
I had an idea ... How about if I send a copy of the articles as PDF to you, Naunacht, and also to Lavender and Meretseger? You could then present the content here together, and so more people here in the forum would have something from it. For example everyone of you could focus on one article? I just do not have the time and I am not so much a Hatshepsut groupy... Cool

Let me know what you three think of this.

Greetings, Lutz.


Are they in English? I don't read anything else I'm afraid. If so please do send.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
I had an idea ... How about if I send a copy of the articles as PDF to you, Naunacht, and also to Lavender and Meretseger? You could then present the content here together, and so more people here in the forum would have something from it. For example everyone of you could focus on one article? I just do not have the time and I am not so much a Hatshepsut groupy... Cool

Let me know what you three think of this.

Greetings, Lutz.


Great Idea, Thanks.
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Naunacht
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lavender wrote:
Lutz -- you are so generous! Thank you; I really appreciate it. I'll give you my email address in a PM if you like.

Naunacht wrote:

In defense of fiction writers (Just to expose any conflict of interest, I'm working on an historical novel set in this period) it's perfectly acceptable for historical fiction authors faced with inconclusive and incomplete evidence, to go with whatever interpretation makes for the best story as long as it doesn't contradict known facts.


You don't have to defend fiction writers to me! I am one myself. Smile I have one novel out from the 18th Dynasty now, and I'm finishing up the next this weekend (not sure of the release yet, though...soon, but I still need to fiddle with it some.) A third will be out in the spring, and then I start tackling my big Amarna project. I'm glad to hear you're working on one, too! There is not nearly enough Egyptian historical fiction out there to satisfy me, and the 18th Dynasty is by far my favorite.

I agree that serving the story first is the the author's and readers' best interests. It's historical fiction, after all. Its primary goal is to entertain!

Quote:
Let's face it, powerful queen meets gifted and talented commoner makes for pretty compelling fiction. Short of making Senenmut a classicly handsome man--there's fairly compelling evidence that he was not although you can probably get around it--a fiction author is within bounds making them lovers.


It's kind of the classic exciting romance storyline, but with gender roles reversed. Irresistible!


Quote:
In my novel, my narrator, a doctor who eventually becomes physician to the king, knows Hatshepsut and Senenmut quite well, knows that there is a strong bond between them, but does not know if their relationship goes beyond a very close, working, friendship. Those very few who are in a position to know are not talking. Other people around him who are in even less of a position to know, are of course rather adament in their opinions on the matter one way or the other. At one point, after Hatshepsut's death, Thutmose III, who's looking for reasons not to marry Neferure, (I'm going with the Neferure outlives Hatshepsut theory) is going to ask my character whether Neferure was Senenmut's daughter as rumor has it and not the child of Thutmose II and my character is going to respond, honestly, that he cannot say for sure and that those who might have been in a position to know are dead.

Yeah, it's a bit of a cop out, but it may very well be the truth as experienced by someone in my character's position.


No, it sounds like a great plot! I'm excited to read it, so hurry up and finish it. Wink

Quote:

See the Armana Tarpits.

Maybe we should coin a new term, the Senenmut Sandtraps or Senenmut's Swamp.


Have you noticed that every fiction writer who even dips a toe into the ancient Nile gets sucked into the Amarna Tarpits? I tried to avoid them, and here I am, planning a fictional delving that rivals Wolf Hall (in my imagination, anyway. In reality, I will probably never writer as well as Hilary Mantel, but dang it, I'll try!) Amarna is just TOO full of juicy speculation for writers to resist. I think the Senenmut/Hatshepsut thing is the same way. It's just there in front of you, glowing all neon and shiny, shouting, "WRITE ME! WRIIIITE MEEEEE!!"

Naunacht, I'm glad somebody else here "gets" me. Wink How many of the rest of us are secretly writing fiction? I'm dying to know now. I should probably share with you secret fiction writers that my single Egyptian title sells well enough that I will be quitting my day job to write full-time in a few months here...readers are starving for good Egyptian fiction and will gladly read whatever they can find. It's a great time to be writing Egyptian novels!



You published an Egyptian novel, Wow, you're my hero! I'd love to read some of your stuff sometime. Maybe you can p.m. me the info. We're seriously taking this string off topic and I don't want to get us shut down. I'm working on my second draft. That involves fact checking which can involve major changes

Funny, I'm reading Hilary Mantel's "Wolf Hall" now. I'm really enjoying the way she takes characters that we think we know, for example, Cromwell and Thomas More and presenting them from a different, but historically justifiable perspective. I've always loved More's "Utopia". He does not come off well in Mantel's novel, but I'm thoroughly enjoying it, nonetheless.

Good luck with your Armana novel. I think the last fiction writer to really get a handle on that period was Allen Drury in "A God Against the Gods" and that was over 30 years ago. Michelle Moran's "Nefertiti" was something of a guilty pleasure. There's definately room for a new serious fictional look at Akhenaton and Co.
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