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Where is Cleopatra?

 
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Where is Cleopatra? Reply with quote

I thought it would be good to take a breathe of fresh air, from all that Amarna by beginning a topic on Cleopatra and the theories as to where Cleopatra was buried (if she were buried at all)?

I say that "if she were buried at all" because, even though Cleopatra as her for-fathers took on much of the persona of being that of an Egyptian, she was still very much so Greek and involved herself with the likes of Romans (of course Julius Ceaser and Mark Antony). That couldn't it be a possibility that Cleopatra wasn't mummified or buried in a tomb at all? instead her corpse simply put on fire and cremated, as were done as a Roman and (at least I think) Greek tradition?

If not, from various documentaries I have watched, it has been suggested that Cleopatra's tomb could lay beneath the sea of Alexandria, is that a likely possibility? Much of the foreshore, sea, used to be part of the city Alexandria, hence the numerous amount of ancient Egyptian artifacts found beneath the water.

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waenre
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Where is Cleopatra? Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
I thought it would be good to take a breathe of fresh air, from all that Amarna by beginning a topic on Cleopatra and the theories as to where Cleopatra was buried (if she were buried at all)?

I say that "if she were buried at all" because, even though Cleopatra as her for-fathers took on much of the persona of being that of an Egyptian, she was still very much so Greek and involved herself with the likes of Romans (of course Julius Ceaser and Mark Antony). That couldn't it be a possibility that Cleopatra wasn't mummified or buried in a tomb at all? instead her corpse simply put on fire and cremated, as were done as a Roman and (at least I think) Greek tradition?

If not, from various documentaries I have watched, it has been suggested that Cleopatra's tomb could lay beneath the sea of Alexandria, is that a likely possibility? Much of the foreshore, sea, used to be part of the city Alexandria, hence the numerous amount of ancient Egyptian artifacts found beneath the water.

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Interesting idea -- I never thought about Cleopatra's mummy.

Has the mummy of any Ptolemy king or queen ever been found?

Thanks in advance.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:04 am    Post subject: Re: Where is Cleopatra? Reply with quote

waenre wrote:
... Has the mummy of any Ptolemy king or queen ever been found? ...

No. But as we know Marc Antony expressed in his last will the desire to be buried according to Egyptian rites in Egypt and on the side of Cleopatra, what Octavian used against him.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: Where is Cleopatra? Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
waenre wrote:
... Has the mummy of any Ptolemy king or queen ever been found? ...

No. But as we know Marc Antony expressed in his last will the desire to be buried according to Egyptian rites in Egypt and on the side of Cleopatra, what Octavian used against him.

Greetings, Lutz.


Yes, though as you stated Lutz "what Octavian used against him", it may well have been Antony's desire to have been buried according to Egyptian rite and done so beside Cleopatra, does not mean, however, that Octavian did so accordingly.

Octavian being the now major power player of Rome, angered/frustrated by Antony and Cleopatra and having the last say as to what would happen to their remains, may well have simply burnt their corpses to dust.

Though, I personally would hope not, that would be a major disappointment.

Also Lutz, I thought there were Ptolemaic pharaohs (kings) and queens mummies found?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Where is Cleopatra? Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
Lutz wrote:
waenre wrote:
... Has the mummy of any Ptolemy king or queen ever been found? ...

No. But as we know Marc Antony expressed in his last will the desire to be buried according to Egyptian rites in Egypt and on the side of Cleopatra, what Octavian used against him.

... Octavian being the now major power player of Rome, ...

And the next ruler of Egypt. After ancient Egyptian tradition it was his task of burying the predecessor to the prescribed ritual.

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
Also Lutz, I thought there were Ptolemaic pharaohs (kings) and queens mummies found?

Your "thoughts" not really help. What sources you have for that? I know only of the possible bones from a sister of Cleopatra, found in her possible tomb in Ephesos (?).

The first Ptolemies were buried in individual tomb buildings, in the vicinity of the so-called "Sema", the second tomb for Alexander the Great in Egypt (his first was in Memphis). Under Ptolemy IV Philopator for Alexander and the Kings and Queens of the Ptolemaic Dynasty, a new "Sema" was built. This was probably on the site of the palace district, wich is as far as I know today lost in the waters of the Mediterran Sea.

Lutz
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And the next ruler of Egypt. After ancient Egyptian tradition it was his task of burying the predecessor to the prescribed ritual.


Exactly my point.


Quote:
Your "thoughts" not really help. What sources you have for that? I know only of the possible bones from a sister of Cleopatra, found in her possible tomb in Ephesos (?).


I did try and find a source, but I'm afraid my thoughts were the only thing I was left with, so in any case you must be right Lutz.

As for Cleopatra's sister, how accurate is that identification exactly? I've had my doubts.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
... As for Cleopatra's sister, how accurate is that identification exactly? I've had my doubts.

There still was a discussion here in the forum, also about that ... "Cleopatra's Tomb". I suggest you look there first.

Lutz
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or here ...

Found: the sister Cleopatra killed

and here ...

Arsinoe IV of Egypt, Cleopatra's sister

or here ...

Search Query

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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

octavian apparently let cleoptara bury or cremate? (i can't remember which) antony, to keep her compliant with his plans. what happened to her body after suicide is unknown. though he was said to have plundered her tomb for gold to pay the soldiers. she was apparently quite a popular monarch among the egyptians, so he may have buried her, but i have read if this was so, it would be done quietly, without fuss so the population could be controlled.
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
octavian apparently let cleoptara bury or cremate? (i can't remember which) antony, to keep her compliant with his plans. what happened to her body after suicide is unknown. though he was said to have plundered her tomb for gold to pay the soldiers. she was apparently quite a popular monarch among the egyptians, so he may have buried her, but i have read if this was so, it would be done quietly, without fuss so the population could be controlled.


And perhaps (if she were buried) that's the reason why, discovering her tomb is so difficult, because it was done perhaps so quickly and quietly?

Also thank you Lutz, as I expected and as Neseret so perfectly pointed out in the thread, the identification of the body is far from certain!
Similar actually to a documentary I watched recently "The lost faces of the Bible" where they assumed they had the skull of Delilah, due to it being a female aged 18 in Philistine! Nothing other than that to identify the skull? It could have been any 18 year old Philistine women! As is the problem indicated in the Cleopatra's sister identification.

Also interestingly, the reconstruction of the skull and what the women would have looked like, look some what similar to that of the one done on Cleopatra's sister.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think it's fairly certain cleopatra's tomb, along with the others from her dynasty and alexander the great's is under the sea in alexandria.
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