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Beketaten and Nebetah Identification
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject: Beketaten and Nebetah Identification Reply with quote

There has been alot of Theories that Nebetah is Beketaten thus changed her name to support her brother's religious changes and therefore could poissbly be the Younger Lady via Tut's mother.

I'm open to this possibility but i have one slight problem. In year 12 of Akhenaten, Beketaten is depicted as a very young child on age with Akhenaten's daughters. Year 12 is the year when Tutankhamen was supposively born. From my observation this kind of undelines that she was it(KIND OF) i repeat(KIND OF)

But wait there is more. I read on Wikipedia that their was a statue of Amenhotep 3 and Queen Tiye seated side by side with three daughters standing in front of them the first two were Henuttaneb and Nebetah and the other's name was lost. Could this confirm that Amenhotep 3 had five daughters instead of four?

To be honest, I do favor the idea that Beketaten could have been Nebetah but its those depictions that shows us otherwise. according to Egyptologist the Younger Lady was no older than 25 the age group where Nebetah falls in(Beketaten could have been at least 15 years old or younger). furthermore the Younger Lady seemed to have been murdered by someone whom deeply hated her which I beleive took place after Tut's birth after Y12 or within Y13. Which leads me to conclude that the child seen with a wetnurse in Meketaten's death scene is Tut and his wetnurse Maia.

Help me out i always like to here what you guys on here has to think what do you think the Younger Lady could possibly be?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Beketaten and Nebetah Identification Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
... I read on Wikipedia that their was a statue of Amenhotep 3 and Queen Tiye seated side by side with three daughters standing in front of them the first two were Henuttaneb and Nebetah and the other's name was lost. ...

"Amenhotep III and Teje with Three Daughters" (Cairo, JE 33906 = N 610). Monumental seated statue (limestone, 7 m high & 5 m wide), found in Medineth Habu but with some security from his "House for Million of Years" at Kom el Hettan. Today on the rear wall of the Great Entrance Hall, Egyptian Museum Cairo.

King and queen sitting on a block throne. Left, right and between them one daughter, standing next to the lower legs of the parents, left arm in front of the upper body, holding a "Menit". Henuttaneb in the middle, wearing a wig and vulture-headdress and on the modios probably once a double feather. Nebti (left) and the unknown daughter (right, after Strauss-Seber, 1997, p. 425 ff., possibly Isis), carry the youth curl.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Beketaten is not depicted as a 'very young child' (ie: naked with a finger to her lips) but as a miniature adult in fashionable linen dress and jewelry. Frankly it is impossible to guess her age from the images we have but if she was Amenhotep III and Tiye's daughter she had to have been more than twelve. For that matter Nefertiti's sister Mutbeneret is also showed pretty much the same size as her nieces and she almost had to be a few years older as well.
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Meretseger"]Beketaten is not depicted as a 'very young child' (ie: naked with a finger to her lips) but as a miniature adult in fashionable linen dress and jewelry. Frankly it is impossible to guess her age from the images we have but if she was Amenhotep III and Tiye's daughter she had to have been more than twelve. For that matter Nefertiti's sister Mutbeneret is also showed pretty much the same size as her nieces and she almost had to be a few years older as well.[/quot.

Im not saying she was infant young she looked on age with at least Meketaten and Meritaten
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Meretseger"]Beketaten is not depicted as a 'very young child' (ie: naked with a finger to her lips) but as a miniature adult in fashionable linen dress and jewelry. Frankly it is impossible to guess her age from the images we have but if she was Amenhotep III and Tiye's daughter she had to have been more than twelve. For that matter Nefertiti's sister Mutbeneret is also showed pretty much the same size as her nieces and she almost had to be a few years older as well.[/quot.

Im not saying she was infant young she looked on age with at least Meketaten and Meritaten
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anneke
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were several daughters: Sitamun, Isis, Henuttaneb, Nebetah and Baketaten (unless Baketaten is one of the others, but with a new Aten name)

The unnamed daughter on the statue could also have been Sitamun or Isis.

I had wondered if Isis was the one that married Akhenaten, but that is pure speculation. My reason (maybe "inspriration" is a better word) for the speculation though was that Isis appears as a great royal wife in about year 34 of Amenhotep III. People usually assume she married her father. Maybe she made her way into her brother's harem?? If she married at ca 12-14, she may have been in her early to mid twenties when Tut was born.
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
There were several daughters: Sitamun, Isis, Henuttaneb, Nebetah and Baketaten (unless Baketaten is one of the others, but with a new Aten name)

The unnamed daughter on the statue could also have been Sitamun or Isis.

I had wondered if Isis was the one that married Akhenaten, but that is pure speculation. My reason (maybe "inspriration" is a better word) for the speculation though was that Isis appears as a great royal wife in about year 34 of Amenhotep III. People usually assume she married her father. Maybe she made her way into her brother's harem?? If she married at ca 12-14, she may have been in her early to mid twenties when Tut was born.


I onced believe that Isis was the one whom married Akhenaten thus Tut's mom a while back.
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well my theory as to whom KV55 and KV35YL were = King Tutankhamun's parents is that, due to the DNA analysis, KV55 and KV35YL being full brother and sister + KV55 more than likely an offspring of Amenhotep III and Tiye, concluding also that KV35YL was a product of Amenhotep and Tiye also + being mentioned/depicted during the Amarna period

=

KV55 being Smenkhkare whom married his sister (I believe, possibly) Nebetah, (whom may have changed their name during the Aten worship? To Beketaten), having Tutankhamun in year 12? Is that correct? Then Nebetah died reassembly young, as evident of her mummy, concluding in Smenkhkare marrying Meritaten?

Is it legitimate enough? Idea
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anneke wrote:
There were several daughters ... Baketaten (unless Baketaten is one of the others, but with a new Aten name) ...

It's not really clear who are the parents of Baketaton. What is certain is that she was the daughter of a king.

anneke wrote:
... The unnamed daughter on the statue could also have been Sitamun or Isis. ...

Satamun appears rather unlikely. She is considered the first-born and thus oldest daughter. The princess from the group sculpture in Cairo (JE 33906), whose name inscription has not been preserved, still wears the youth curl and is shown considerably smaller than her sister Henuttaneb in the middle.

Lutz
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:


Im not saying she was infant young she looked on age with at least Meketaten and Meritaten


Who were roughly twelve and ten. If Beket was only a few years older - as she would HAVE to be to be AIII's daughter she would be old enough to bear a child.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
Well my theory as to whom KV55 and KV35YL were = King Tutankhamun's parents is that, due to the DNA analysis, KV55 and KV35YL being full brother and sister + KV55 more than likely an offspring of Amenhotep III and Tiye, concluding also that KV35YL was a product of Amenhotep and Tiye also + being mentioned/depicted during the Amarna period

=

KV55 being Smenkhkare whom married his sister (I believe, possibly) Nebetah, (whom may have changed their name during the Aten worship? To Beketaten), having Tutankhamun in year 12? Is that correct? Then Nebetah died reassembly young, as evident of her mummy, concluding in Smenkhkare marrying Meritaten?

Is it legitimate enough? Idea


That's pretty much how I see it. But Smen didn't have to wait for Nebeta/Baketaten/whoever to die before marrying Meritaten to secure his claim.
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
Well my theory as to whom KV55 and KV35YL were = King Tutankhamun's parents is that, due to the DNA analysis, KV55 and KV35YL being full brother and sister + KV55 more than likely an offspring of Amenhotep III and Tiye, concluding also that KV35YL was a product of Amenhotep and Tiye also + being mentioned/depicted during the Amarna period

=

KV55 being Smenkhkare whom married his sister (I believe, possibly) Nebetah, (whom may have changed their name during the Aten worship? To Beketaten), having Tutankhamun in year 12? Is that correct? Then Nebetah died reassembly young, as evident of her mummy, concluding in Smenkhkare marrying Meritaten?

Is it legitimate enough? Idea


That's pretty much how I see it. But Smen didn't have to wait for Nebeta/Baketaten/whoever to die before marrying Meritaten to secure his claim.


I know, though isn't that what most likely happened? Nebetah/Beketaten, died, then afterwards he married Meritaten?
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Smenkhkare's claim Reply with quote

KV55 being Smenkhkare whom married his sister (I believe, possibly) Nebetah, (whom may have changed their name during the Aten worship? To Beketaten), having Tutankhamun in year 12? Is that correct? Then Nebetah died reassembly young, as evident of her mummy, concluding in Smenkhkare marrying Meritaten?

Is it legitimate enough? Idea[/quote]

That's pretty much how I see it. But Smen didn't have to wait for Nebeta/Baketaten/whoever to die before marrying Meritaten to secure his claim.[/quote]

Smenkhkare had no claim to the throne as the Pharaoh's brother. Only the son of a reigning Pharaoh had a claim. If a king died without sons other men might stake a claim. A king's brother wasn't in the line of succession though. Ramsesess II had several crownprinces throughout his reign. The older sons were married and had children but these grandsons did not replace their father as the crownprince, it was one of the Pharaoh's other sons who became heir and the sons of the deceased crownprinces no longer could expect to succeed one day. Had their father survived the king than one of them would have been the future pharaoh.
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is it safe to say that Beketaten is Tutankhamen's mom.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as a so of a king, smenkhkare would have a claim on the throne. as a son of amenhotep III, he would have a claim on the throne. after akhenaten's disastrous rule, a son of amenhotep III with leanings towards the old religion would be the first choice. esepcially since akhenaten had no sons. akhenaten only had daughters, so if there were no more males in the family, then one of them would have ruled, ala sobekneferu and twosret. since smenkhkare came to the throne, and had a son, i think it is safe to say a king's brother is in line for the throne.....as just demonstrated by the info on ramses II, who by the way, was in an unprecedented position.
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