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Nakhpaaten
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:42 pm    Post subject: Nakhpaaten Reply with quote

Moving my interest from the royals at the moment I want to pull my Attention on one of thier subjects, Nahkpaaten. Yes i think the impossible of him. I find it very intriguing that out of all of Akhenaten's subject his name has the aten in it and the fact he has the Title Hereditary Prince. Im not saying he could've been the son or Akhenaten he could very well been a brother of the king from one A3's minor wives. I could understand if hr
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As i was saying before i was cut off by my galaxy phone i could see if he changed his name to support Akhenaten aten movement. Yes i also believe that Nahkpaaten wasn't his original name but the hereditory prince thing stretches my curiousity.

Another theory of mine was that he was identical to Nakhmin, the son of Ay under a different name

I also thought that he was Smenkhare thus changed his name seeing how the Aten movement was failing and thus changed his name back to its original form.

People this is all speculation of my curiosity of Amarna and this is one of the individuals that sparked my interest. Nakhpaaten that name sounds so nobile. Cool
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
I also thought that he was Smenkhare thus changed his name seeing how the Aten movement was failing and thus changed his name back to its original form.


'smenkhkare' is a name which is acceptable under akhenaten's religion, or the old religion. akhenaten did not ban whorship of any solar gods, he merely insisted they were aspects of the aten. therefore the 're' element was perfectly acceptable. so there is no need for the name 'smenkhkare' to be an assumed one. there was a 13th? dynasty king by the name.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
... so there is no need for the name 'smenkhkare' to be an assumed one. there was a 13th? dynasty king by the name.

Once again, just plain wrong. The name "Semenchkara" is not prooved in Egyptian history as a first name (Ranke, Die ägyptischen Personennamen I - III, 1935-1977). The 18th (Beckerath, Handbuch der Ägyptischen Königsnamen, 1999) king of the 13th Dynasty, Emramescha, introduced this construct as his throne name. Before him the 8th king, Nebennu, used "Semenkara". Thats all with examples before and after Amarna...

Lutz
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

absence of evidence lutz does not mean evidence of absence.

just because you do not believe it was a personal name among the royal family does not mean you are right. and it also doesn't mean it can't have been used among the general populace. you have 3,000 years of history, you can't say that your 'evidence' is 100% accurate.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again you prove your ignorance and lack of objectivity when you try to protect your little Discovery Channel World from the evil conspirators community of Egyptologists. Ever heard of probability and common sense? Ever had a look into the work by Ranke? What do you know of the importance of this work for Egyptology research?

But what do I say, it has no purpose anyway... The reader will think its part and decide for themself whose arguments he may follow.

Lutz
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
... just because you do not believe ...

For clarification: It is not about what I think / believe or not. It goes about the evidence. And the evidence base is clear in this case: 3000 years no first name "Semenchkara" known from any AE document, royal or non-royal...

Lutz
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Robson
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
absence of evidence lutz does not mean evidence of absence.


This is the Ur-logical fallacy. It justifies the possibility of existence of gnomes, unicorns, elves and fairies.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But there are examples of princes bearing throne names as personal names aren't there? According to the 'Royal Families of Ancient Egypt' both Thutmose III and Amehotep II had sons bearing their father's throne name as a personal one.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shouldn't the name be "Nakhtpaaten"? Every formal Egyptian name is a complete phrase and this one would mean "Might of the Aten".
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or maybe "Strong is the Aten".
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyway, all this talk of names put me in mind of something and maybe Lutz can help me out here. The other day, I came across an official of the 18th Dynasty whose name was Wadjmose. I think his wife or perhaps mother was named Senseneb. There was also someone in the family who had a name with the "Teti" element.

While looking at this family genealogy [and where did I see it??] I was reminded that Barbara Lesko thought the future Thutmose II was a younger son of Thutmose I and that Wadjmose and Amenmose were quite a bit older. As people seem to think that Thutmose I was not exactly a young man when he came to the throne, his elder sons can have been born before he ever thought about becoming pharaoh--and so maybe this Wadjmose was named after the commoner father of Thutmose I [whose original name might not even have been Thutmose].

It would seem that Queen Ahmose-Nefertari came from a family in which every other male was named 'Teti". In fact, the queen is shown in the tomb of one of the men [Tetires ?] while she was still a lesser wife. At some point, Ahmose, her husband, had killed "the great enemy, Teti-an". Nobody knows who that was--but again a name with "Teti" in a time far removed from the Old Kingdom when Teti was a kingly name.

Some years ago a microbiologist named Scott Woodward tested the DNA of the royal mummies. He did not publish his results, but later commented his research seemed to indicate that a mummy labelled "Thutmose I" was the son of Amenhotep I. What Woodward didn't realize is that this mummy is unlikely to be that of Thutmose I but a much younger man. Much more recently, it has been discovered that this young man had an arrow-head embedded in his chest. Somebody killed him! If this was a son of Amenhotep I and an heir to the throne, it may even be that the one responsible was Thutmose I. Perhaps he was even a relative of Teti-an, who chose the time to take revenge on the house of the 17th Dynasty--and begin his own. Strange speculation--but who knows? I saw in Urkunden that one of the epithets of Thutmose I was "Thutmose-an" or "Thutmose the Handsome".
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tomb in which Ahmose Nefertari is depicted still wearing the crown of a concubine with a gazelle head is that of Tetiky, mayor of Thebes. [TT15]
Tetires was another of the family, with shabtis in the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And Teitky's (who also had the title of "Royal Son") mother was called Sensonb (!). His father was the Overseer of the Harem of the Lake Rahotep.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
But there are examples of princes bearing throne names as personal names aren't there? According to the 'Royal Families of Ancient Egypt' both Thutmose III and Amehotep II had sons bearing their father's throne name as a personal one.

However, I would say it is also for a divine pharaoh of the 13th Dynasty difficult to be the father of a regent of the late 18th Dynasty?

But there is another theory according to which Emramescha (king, 13th Dynasty) maybe was a foreign mercenary. Since in most cases plausible reasons are suspected behind the choice of the throne name, this was seen as evidence for a foreign origin of Semenchkara ---> Gabolde (?), Zananza = Semenchkara. According to the motto: So, dear gods, we still had this in the 13th. No problem with Maat... Cool

Greetings, Lutz.
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