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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Except for King Smenkhkara-Djeserkheperu that is.

No. Because there is no evidence that the person who used as 2nd ring name the construction "Semenchkara - Djesercheperu" led the birth name Semenchkara. Neither this nor any other person in Egyptian history are covered under this birth / first name.

Greetings, Lutz.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
Except for King Smenkhkara-Djeserkheperu that is.

No. Because there is no evidence that the person who used as 2nd ring name the construction "Semenchkara - Djesercheperu" led the birth name Semenchkara. Neither this nor any other person in Egyptian history are covered under this birth / first name.

Greetings, Lutz.


like i said, just because you have no evidence does not mean your right.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

going by your train of thought, your own name, 'lutz' can't be a real name because no memeber of the upper classes ever owned it.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
going by your train of thought, your own name, 'lutz' can't be a real name because no memeber of the upper classes ever owned it.

I can only strongly recommend once again finally to deal with the related literature. Ranke lists all known names from ancient Egypt, including also the names of porters or water carriers, for example, and not only the names of an imaginary class as you unfounded and absurdly insinuate.

For the rest still applies : #Sleep #Sleep #Sleep

Lutz

P.S.: Sorry, and even whith my name you are completely wrong. He derived from the French kings named Ludwig / Louis... Upper class enough for an opossum?
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
I can only strongly recommend once again finally to deal with the related literature. Ranke lists all known names from ancient Egypt, including also the names of porters or water carriers, for example, and not only the names of an imaginary class as you unfounded and absurdly insinuate.


i highly doubt the name of every noble and royal from egypt is included in that book. or the names of every peasant for that matter. it is simply impossible to record every name ever recorded from one country.

Lutz wrote:
For the rest still applies #Sleep #Sleep #Sleep


i'm quite happy to have a debate. but this is childish and insulting. change your attitude or say nothing at all lutz. it's rather simple. you don't have to jump down my throat with every post, yet you do so. i have held back a lot in dealing with you, and i'm simply over it.

Lutz wrote:
P.S.: Sorry, and even whith my name you are completely wrong. He derived from the French kings named Ludwig / Louis... Upper class enough for an opossum?


if the name is ludwig, then lutz is a derivative. not the same thing.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
Lutz wrote:
For the rest still applies #Sleep #Sleep #Sleep

i'm quite happy to have a debate. but this is childish and insulting. change your attitude or say nothing at all lutz. it's rather simple. you don't have to jump down my throat with every post, yet you do so. i have held back a lot in dealing with you, and i'm simply over it. ...

Again, I am of course not at all in your opinion. Also, I will not impose myself from you quite sure not when and where I speak my mind here in this forum. And if you want to be taken seriously by me, more than a glimpse into the crystal ball as evidence is necessary.
To express unfounded and absurd assumptions about books that you do obviously not know I better not comment ... I would probably really breach against forum rules ... However, that is saying a lot about you from my opinion.

kylejustin wrote:
Lutz wrote:
P.S.: Sorry, and even whith my name you are completely wrong. He derived from the French kings named Ludwig / Louis... Upper class enough for an opossum?

if the name is ludwig, then lutz is a derivative. not the same thing.

And also here might help to look at a book. In this case, one on the history of the successor states to the Western Roman Empire.

Lutz
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Again, I am of course not at all in your opinion. Also, I will not impose myself from you quite sure not when and where I speak my mind here in this forum. And if you want to be taken seriously by me, more than a glimpse into the crystal ball as evidence is necessary.
To express unfounded and absurd assumptions about books that you do obviously not know I better not comment ... I would probably really breach against forum rules ... However, that is saying a lot about you from my opinion.


i don't care what your opinion of me is lutz. i don't care if you take me seriously or not. what i care about is the rude way you talk to me. condescending, arrogant. it is not at all polite. the only reason i don't speak to you frankly, is simply because i don't think it's worth getting banned from this forum. like is said, you don't have to respond to my posts, so either be civil or don't say anything at all. it's not that hard.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
i don't care what your opinion of me is lutz. i don't care if you take me seriously or not. what i care about is the rude way you talk to me. condescending, arrogant. it is not at all polite. the only reason i don't speak to you frankly, is simply because i don't think it's worth getting banned from this forum. like is said, you don't have to respond to my posts, so either be civil or don't say anything at all. it's not that hard.

This statement I can return mail back to you...

Lutz
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point was King Smenkhkara-Djeserkheperu existed. He was a he and Akheperure Neferneferuaten was a she. Separate people. And if he was KV55 he WAS a son of Amenhotep III and Tiye.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
My point was King Smenkhkara-Djeserkheperu existed. He was a he and Akheperure Neferneferuaten was a she. Separate people. And if he was KV55 he WAS a son of Amenhotep III and Tiye.

The main problem here is for me to find an even remotely reasonable explanation for the use of identical throne names by two successive kings. This would be unique in the history of Egypt. The throne name has, as I still mentioned several times, a very special and important meaning. He is used for example to manage the dating in administration because it clearly distinguishes one king from other rulers. Abroad, the kings were usually known only by their throne name (see Amarna letters). There are Egyptologists who believe that this was, in part, also for the domestic population in this way. Akhenaten has never changed his throne name in the 17 years of his reign. All other four great names he did.

Greetings, Lutz.
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VBadJuJu
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:

The main problem here is for me to find an even remotely reasonable explanation for the use of identical throne names by two successive kings. This would be unique in the history of Egypt.

I agree as to the importance of the issue of successive throne names. It strikes me as very bizarre and begging a plausible explanation.

In a different time and culture, I could see the second king using a variation to try and gloss over the fact that 2 or 3 kings had died in quick succession in order to project an aire of stability at home and abroad. But these kings seem unlikely to sacrifice their ego for public relations benefit or even for the benefit of the kingdom.

One fairly good explanation for successive throne names is Allen's suggestion that Smenkhkare takes the name Ankhkheprure as a rival king to Neferneferuaten. After year 16 or so, we have up to 4 kings (including Akhenaten) to fit into about a 4 year window. It doesnt seem likely to me that all these people could be kings in the time allowed without some sort of dual king situation: either a coregency or rival kings.

The 19th Dynasty rivalry between Seti II and Amenmesses shows that family members (they were father-son or brothers) could rise up to actively oppose one another. In that case, there is evidence of monuments etc being commissioned by one king, then reinscribed by the other when he gained control of that part of the kingdom (mainly Thebes area). There isnt anything like that for the Amarna succession, but we do have Neferneferuaten being denied a king's burial by her successor, and possibly Smenkhkare (if he==KV55) as well.

Since Neferneferuaten's (=Nefertiti) damnation happens immediately after her death, it seems at least possible that opposition started during her reign. If Akhenaten's proscription of Amun happened in his final years, whatever fallout or reaction there was to that might have reflected on her as his chosen successor. Maybe the result was just a sentiment that brewed and steeped to be uncorked upon her death, but a rival king seems equally possible. The proscription, another Aten king and/or a dynastic dead end female king then might be the flash point/rationale for naming a rival.
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Lavender
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it totally inconceivable that some random Egyptian parents just named their kid(s) Smenkhkare? We have parents naming kids after all kinds of famous people from the past in our current culture...why not in ancient Egypt?
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
Except for King Smenkhkara-Djeserkheperu that is.

No. Because there is no evidence that the person who used as 2nd ring name the construction "Semenchkara - Djesercheperu" led the birth name Semenchkara. Neither this nor any other person in Egyptian history are covered under this birth / first name.

Greetings, Lutz.


And even assumed that is so why should this lead to the assumption that there can`t have been a royal prince with this name?
There certainly were many popular names that were repeatedly given over and over again, but there was no law against unique names.

I think a royal prince Smenkhkare could fit well in what we know of AIII`s reign. He started out as a traditional king but later, especially from the time of his sed festivals onwards, he began to stress the solar cult of Re and the Aten.
If we now look at the names of some of his children, we have first Sitamun, Tutmosis and Amenhotep and very late Baketaten. This reflects the way his reign changed giving less importance to the traditional deities to the Aten.
Another child in between who had the Re element incorporated in his name seems to me just a logical choice, and it would have made even more sense to give him an unusual name in order to show that things had changed.

I know that Baketaten`s parentship is not beyond any doubt though AIII and Tiye are most likely candidates. But even if we ignore her, the tendency to favour the solar cult is still unmistakable.

Just one question regarding Ranke`s book: how many Tutanchatons or Tutanchamuns are listed there?
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herper
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz, i hate to disagree with you, but i just read Howard Carters 3part ebook on the tomb of Tutankhamen, and Carter mentions several times the name Smenkhare being found on items in the tomb. Seems that if the royal workshops used the name on grave goods it was an accepted name at the time.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

herper wrote:
Lutz, i hate to disagree with you, but i just read Howard Carters 3part ebook on the tomb of Tutankhamen, and Carter mentions several times the name Smenkhare being found on items in the tomb. Seems that if the royal workshops used the name on grave goods it was an accepted name at the time.

So, then you should be able to give some examples for these objects (with Carter Number, please)...

Greetings, Lutz.
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