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Nakhpaaten
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Meretseger wrote:
Except for King Smenkhkara-Djeserkheperu that is.

No. Because there is no evidence that the person who used as 2nd ring name the construction "Semenchkara - Djesercheperu" led the birth name Semenchkara. Neither this nor any other person in Egyptian history are covered under this birth / first name.

And even assumed that is so why should this lead to the assumption that there can`t have been a royal prince with this name? ...

I did not say that there can`t no, I say that there is no evidence in Egypt history that this name was ever used as prenomen, royal or non-royal. It was used before Amarna only once, as a throne name. A throne name is a construct given to the king by his accession to the throne, not at birth.

Quote:
... Just one question regarding Ranke`s book: how many Tutanchatons or Tutanchamuns are listed there?

Counter question: What means "Tutankhaton / amun" in translation?

Greetings, Lutz.
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Vangu Vegro
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

herper wrote:
Lutz, i hate to disagree with you, but i just read Howard Carters 3part ebook on the tomb of Tutankhamen, and Carter mentions several times the name Smenkhare being found on items in the tomb. Seems that if the royal workshops used the name on grave goods it was an accepted name at the time.


The way I understand it, Carter wrote his book before it was theorized that there was an Ankhkheperura Neferneferuaten, and the inscriptions that refer to 'Ankhkheperura' were automatically assumed to refer to Smenkhkara, since that was the only pharaoh by the name Ankhkheperura that Egyptology knew of at the time.

After Egyptologists began to see Neferneferuaten as a separate pharaoh, they reanalyzed the texts and found they referred to Neferneferuaten, hence Reeves' comment that contrary to what many people believe, no object from KV62 has the name Smenkhkara on it.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:

Quote:
... Just one question regarding Ranke`s book: how many Tutanchatons or Tutanchamuns are listed there?

Counter question: What means "Tutankhaton / amun" in translation?

Greetings, Lutz.


I think we all know that the name is usually translated as "Living image if the Aten/Amun". But why do you ask for the translation when I only asked if Ranke mentions how often this name has occured in AE?
Please leave your opinion that this name can only have been given to Akhenaten`s royal heir and to absolutely no-one else at the side just now.

My only point is, and I think you know it, to state an example of a name that is clearly an unusual, probably unique birth name of somebody who later became king. And very close in time to Smenkhkare too.
Therefore there is no need to imply that Smenkhkare cannot have been a male birth name but had to be a name later adopted by Neferneferuaten as one of her royal names.
At least that`s how I have always understood your line of thought when you stressed that there is no evidence of Smenkhkare as birth name.

Tell me if I`m wrong.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Lutz wrote:

Quote:
... Just one question regarding Ranke`s book: how many Tutanchatons or Tutanchamuns are listed there?

Counter question: What means "Tutankhaton / amun" in translation?

I think we all know that the name is usually translated as "Living image if the Aten/Amun". But why do you ask for the translation when I only asked if Ranke mentions how often this name has occured in AE?
Please leave your opinion that this name can only have been given to Akhenaten`s royal heir and to absolutely no-one else at the side just now....

Sorry, but it is not possible to leave "it" at the side. Can you leave at the side that you know the world is round when somebody wants to tell you that it is a cube?

Everything we know about the idea of royality in Ancient Egypt before, during and after Amarna points in direction that only a king can be the "Living Image of Aton / Amun", at least during NK. It would be blasphemous to use that name for a "normal" child / man. And the Ancient Egyptians did it not. There are hundrets of Amenhotep`s and Thutmosis`s in the NK, but only one Tutanchaton / amun...

Sothis wrote:
... Therefore there is no need to imply that Smenkhkare cannot have been a male birth name but had to be a name later adopted by Neferneferuaten as one of her royal names. ...

Once again, I never said Semenchkara can not be a male name. I just said that we have no example that it was, that is a difference. We only know it as throne name from the 13th Dynasty. And a throne name is taken by the king by his accession to the throne, not at birth.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Sothis wrote:
Lutz wrote:

Quote:
... Just one question regarding Ranke`s book: how many Tutanchatons or Tutanchamuns are listed there?

Counter question: What means "Tutankhaton / amun" in translation?

I think we all know that the name is usually translated as "Living image if the Aten/Amun". But why do you ask for the translation when I only asked if Ranke mentions how often this name has occured in AE?
Please leave your opinion that this name can only have been given to Akhenaten`s royal heir and to absolutely no-one else at the side just now....

Sorry, but it is not possible to leave "it" at the side. Can you leave at the side that you know the world is round when somebody wants to tell you that it is a cube?

Everything we know about the idea of royality in Ancient Egypt before, during and after Amarna points in direction that only a king can be the "Living Image of Aton / Amun", at least during NK. It would be blasphemous to use that name for a "normal" child / man. And the Ancient Egyptians did it not. There are hundrets of Amenhotep`s and Thutmosis`s in the NK, but only one Tutanchaton / amun...

Sothis wrote:
... Therefore there is no need to imply that Smenkhkare cannot have been a male birth name but had to be a name later adopted by Neferneferuaten as one of her royal names. ...

Once again, I never said Semenchkara can not be a male name. I just said that we have no example that it was, that is a difference. We only know it as throne name from the 13th Dynasty. And a throne name is taken by the king by his accession to the throne, not at birth.

Greetings, Lutz.


Ok, so we have two unique birth names, Smenkhkare and Tutankhaten, one after another. No problem. Although I wonder why, if "Tutankh-X" was such an obvious name choice for a royal prince, there are no other Tutankhamuns or Tutankhres or Tutankhmentus and so on among all the kings and princes.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Ok, so we have two unique birth names, Smenkhkare and Tutankhaten, one after another. No problem. ...

No, we have only one birthname, Tutanchamun, unique of reasons of royal ideology. There is no proof that Semenchkara is a birthname, royal or non-royal.
Sothis wrote:
... Although I wonder why, if "Tutankh-X" was such an obvious name choice for a royal prince, there are no other Tutankhamuns or Tutankhres or Tutankhmentus and so on among all the kings and princes.

Here it is importent to remember that Tutanchaton was the birthname. The Amun-version was for sure a compromise and not planed from the beginning. "Living image of the Aton" is one of the center statements of the ideologie of Amarna and the position of the king in it. No king of the NK is called living image of Amun (?), he was the son of the god, his chosen one, but not his incarnation on earth. This actually goes beyond the well-known, so my guess "compromise". Maybe even in these special situation also an additional security for the "Amun-group" regarding any possible return to Aton religion?

Greetings, Lutz.
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Smenchkare Reply with quote

The meaning of Smenchkare is translated as strong is the soul of the Aten. That is no so strange compared to Achnaten, Neferneferuaten and Tutankhaten.

If he actually existed remains a questionmark and who he was if he existed as well.

He may have been a (renamed?) younger (half-)brother of Achnaten or his son.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Smenchkare Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
The meaning of Smenchkare is translated as strong is the soul of the Aten. That is no so strange compared to Achnaten, Neferneferuaten and Tutankhaten. ...

I do not agree. Tutankhaton, "Living image of Aten", is not just a theological statement (like your other examples). It is also a clear power-political statement. Only the (future) king can be the living image of the god. The other names could also be worn - hypothetically - by others, also by non-royal persons, without problems.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a thought - Can we really say that Tutankhaten was the boy's birth name? If he was the son of Smenchkare (as the genetics suggest IMO) couldn't he have been given that name during his father's reign?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:01 pm    Post subject: Smenchkare and Tutanchaten Reply with quote

That is an interesting option. Tut could be the son of Smenchkare with another name only being renamed once his father became co-regent or pharaoh himself. If both Smenchkare and Tutanchaten were sons of Achnaten the first one could be born from a lower ranking wife while Tut had a Royal Princess as his mother. He still could have been renamed as Achnaten and the Great Royal Wife Nefertiti went on to have several other children after his birth. So he might have had another name at first and only changed to Tutanchaten once it was clear that Nefertiti would not produce the heir for his father. It is even possible that he did not even get the name until after the death of Smenchkare if that pharaoh was his older (half?)brother and the husband of princess Meritaten. Smenchkare's early death could have resulted in the succession falling to the only remaining son who was renamed Tutanchaten.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Tut had yet another name at any time it should have come to light on objects from his tomb, just like Tutankhuaten appears. Royal princes did on occasion change their names (e.g. some of Ramessess II's sons including his first crown prince), but they always seem to keep an element of their name intact e.g. Sethirhopshef and Amenhirkopshef - like Tut just changing the name of the god referred to not their whole name. They most likely had pet names / nick names within the close family or friends anyway.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vangu Vegro wrote:
... Can we really say that Tutankhaten was the boy's birth name? ...

Can we say he was it not? I think it's unhelpful to construct "proofs" with adventurous theories themselves ... On such a basis one can almost assert anything.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Vangu Vegro wrote:
... Can we really say that Tutankhaten was the boy's birth name? ...

Can we say he was it not? I think it's unhelpful to construct "proofs" with adventurous theories themselves ... On such a basis one can almost assert anything.

Greetings, Lutz.


no more absurd than you insistence 'smenkhkare' is a made up name. just because we do not have that name occuring in the known populace, does not mean it never existed as a given name. how many artifacts are still buried int he sands of the egyptian desert?
the name 'tutankhamun' does not appear at all besides the 18th dynasty king. so we could say the same about that name.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
no more absurd than you insistence 'smenkhkare' is a made up name. ...

That the name "Semenchkara" is a construct that shows the typical form of a nesut bit or throne name (and before and after Amarna even one time is known as such) is a fakt. For this I do not have to construct exchange scenarios, with no basis. But to understand this (and you read this not for the first time) you have to deal with the meaning, history and structure of the royal names...

Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: throne name Reply with quote

even if semenchkara is a throne name like anchkepereru than we still have to figure out who was meant with this name. It refers to a male with another throne name added to the semenchkara. We have the same first thronename with Neferneferuaten but that refers to a female.
So even if Smenchkara was not the name that individual was known by we still need to know who it refers to. Using Smenchkara as his name for the time being is the best solution until it becomes clear who it was and the given name is known.
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