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Tia- Ankhesenamun`s wet nurse and Tia-Sitre mother of Seti
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:46 pm    Post subject: Tia- Ankhesenamun`s wet nurse and Tia-Sitre mother of Seti Reply with quote

I'm bored out of my mind so i thought i could just right about this subject. I wonder if Tia Ankhesenamun's wet nurse could have been Tia Sitre mother of Seti I. Little is known of her origins and she could have been pulled up in the ranks do to her former relationship with Queen Ankhesenamun.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not impossible. Wet-nurses were selected from the wives of important officials and closeness to the royal family may have led to her husband being tapped by Horemheb as his successor.
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herper
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasnt Rameses Horemhebs successor on the thrown?
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

herper wrote:
Wasnt Rameses Horemhebs successor on the thrown?


Yes, but his son Seti was old enough to have an established career during the reign of Horemheb and he had a son Rameses (II) already so the choice of Paramessu (Ramesses I) was a wise one.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The estimated age of 45 year old of the Atlanta mummy, attributed to Ramses I doesn't help much this hypothesis. It puts the future Pharaoh as a 30/32 year old at the beginning of Horemheb's reign, and 16/18 years old at the end of Akhenaten's. Unless his wife was at least 10/15 years older than him, she wouldn't be qualified, as a toddler, to be Ankhsenpaaten's wet-nurse.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
The estimated age of 45 year old of the Atlanta mummy, attributed to Ramses I doesn't help much this hypothesis. It puts the future Pharaoh as a 30/32 year old at the beginning of Horemheb's reign, and 16/18 years old at the end of Akhenaten's. Unless his wife was at least 10/15 years older than him, she wouldn't be qualified, as a toddler, to be Ankhsenpaaten's wet-nurse.


Egyptian females in ancient times could become nubile (sexually active/marriageable) as early as 8 yoa, according to Janssen and Janssen. So, a female could give birth as early as 8-9 years and so, I would think that any female married to Ramses I as a military officer - who may have been 16-18 years old at the end of the Amarna reign of Akhenaten, would not have had any problem being a wet nurse to Tutankhamun, who was probably born about Year 12 or 13 Akhenaten.

One has to recall that both males and females matured earlier in ancient times than today.

On nubility of ancient Egyptian females:

Jannsen, J and R. Janssen. 2007. Growing Up and Getting Old in Ancient Egypt. London: Golden House Publications.

HTH.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that was indeed so (and opinions are divided on this topic) I seriously wonder how girls were supposed to give birth successfully at such a tender age and with such small and underdeveloped bodies.
Nobody can tell me that a 8 or 9 year old girl had the mature body and wide pelvis of a grown woman even if menstruation had set in.
Today in the UK every pregnancy of under 16`s is treated as one with high risk.

For this reason I believe that girls did not marry before their early teens.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
For this reason I believe that girls did not marry before their early teens.


marriage and sex are two very separate things. simply living with someone at age 9, which is let's face it, how the egyptians 'married' no ceremony seems to have existed. doesn't necessarily mean that most egyptian women consummated a marriage that young, if they took place at that age in general.

i can only think of european royal and noble marriages where the bride was a child and actually went to live with the groom, but the marriage itself either being consummated once she was a teenager, or the marriage ending because the grom died before that stage could happen.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
Sothis wrote:
For this reason I believe that girls did not marry before their early teens.


marriage and sex are two very separate things. simply living with someone at age 9, which is let's face it, how the egyptians 'married' no ceremony seems to have existed. doesn't necessarily mean that most egyptian women consummated a marriage that young, if they took place at that age in general.

i can only think of european royal and noble marriages where the bride was a child and actually went to live with the groom, but the marriage itself either being consummated once she was a teenager, or the marriage ending because the grom died before that stage could happen.


Right, but my point was not so much marriage but rather the statement in neseret`s post that 8 to 9 year olds could already (successfully) give birth.

For the reasons I stated in my previous post I still have a huge problem with that.
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Vangu Vegro
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
kylejustin wrote:
Sothis wrote:
For this reason I believe that girls did not marry before their early teens.


marriage and sex are two very separate things. simply living with someone at age 9, which is let's face it, how the egyptians 'married' no ceremony seems to have existed. doesn't necessarily mean that most egyptian women consummated a marriage that young, if they took place at that age in general.

i can only think of european royal and noble marriages where the bride was a child and actually went to live with the groom, but the marriage itself either being consummated once she was a teenager, or the marriage ending because the grom died before that stage could happen.


Right, but my point was not so much marriage but rather the statement in neseret`s post that 8 to 9 year olds could already (successfully) give birth.

For the reasons I stated in my previous post I still have a huge problem with that.


Well, preteen pregnancies are certainly anomalies, but there's plenty of evidence that it happened and still does. Unlikely does not mean impossible.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Sothis"]
kylejustin wrote:
Sothis wrote:
For this reason I believe that girls did not marry before their early teens.


marriage and sex are two very separate things. simply living with someone at age 9, which is let's face it, how the egyptians 'married' no ceremony seems to have existed. doesn't necessarily mean that most egyptian women consummated a marriage that young, if they took place at that age in general.

i can only think of european royal and noble marriages where the bride was a child and actually went to live with the groom, but the marriage itself either being consummated once she was a teenager, or the marriage ending because the grom died before that stage could happen.


You have to realise that nubility (the ability to have sex and produce children) now occurs at older ages simply for cultural reasons. In certain modern cultures - say, for example, India - nubility can occur as early as 8-9 years of age, when menses begin. I have cousins who are Indian, for example, who experienced their first menstrual period at age 8.

Also, one has to remember that life expectancy has grown since ancient times, where 35 was considered past middle age, and life beyond 45 was very rare (Ramses, dying at 91, was probably cionsidered practically immortal to most Egyptians, as 3 whole generations knew him as king). So, if you have a life expectancy of no more than 40-45 (tops), all aspects of your maturation will take place at earlier and earlier times.

Sothis wrote:
Right, but my point was not so much marriage but rather the statement in neseret`s post that 8 to 9 year olds could already (successfully) give birth.


Janssen and Janssen (2007) note that sexual maturity and the ability to give birth is recorded in ancient records from about age 10 onwards.

See:

Janssen, R. M. and J. J. Janssen 2007. Growing Up and Getting Old in Ancient Egypt. London: Golden House Publications.

One cannot judge ancient maturation ages with modern cultural norms, which judge females at age 10 or younger as "children." As before, with the total age from birth --> death being medianed usually no more than 40-45 yoa, then maturity would take place as early as 8-9 in terms of puberty, as well as the ability to give birth.

It seems we've had this discussion before about early age of the onset of puberty in ancient Egypt, but I can't seem to locate the message thread.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suggest that anyone who believes a girl of nine is able to handle intercourse with a grown man or childbirth, should read this ebook, "Mother India" by Katherine Mayo. It is not a work of fiction. Even the introduction says plenty about the cripping effects [physically and mentally]. Laws had to be passed against child brides in India, but the practice still continues.

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300811h.html
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Mother India"

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300811h.html

"In other provinces of India, other medical men and women, European and western-educated Indian alike, gave me ample corroborative statements as to the effects of child motherhood. On the mother's part, increased predisposition to tuberculosis; displacement of organs; softening of immature bones, due to weight on spine and pelvis, presently causing disastrous obstructions to birth; hysteria and pathological mental derangements; stunting of mental and physical growth. "A very small percentage of Indian women seem to me to be well and strong," adds a woman physician of wide present-day Indian experience. "This state I believe to be accounted for by a morbid and unawakened mentality, by venereal infection, and by sexual exhaustion. They commonly experience marital use two and three times a day."

Thirty-six years ago, when the Age of Consent bill was being argued in the Indian Legislature, all the women doctors then working in India united to lay before the Viceroy a memorial and petition for the relief of those to whose help their own lives were dedicated. Affirming that they instanced only ordinary cases--cases taken from the common personal practice of one or another of their own number--they give as follows the conditions in which certain patients first came into their hands:[2]

[2. Legislative Assembly Debates, 1922, Vol III, Part I, pp. 881-3, and Appendix, p. 919.]
A.--Aged 9. Day after marriage. Left femur dislocated, pelvis crushed out of shape. Flesh hanging in shreds.

B.--Aged 10. Unable to stand, bleeding profusely, flesh much lacerated.

C.--Aged 9. So completely ravished as to be almost beyond surgical repair. Her husband had two other living wives and spoke very fine English.

I.--Aged_ about 7. Living with husband. Died in great agony after three days.

M.--Aged about 10. Crawled to hospital on her hands and knees. Has never been able to stand erect since her marriage,

The original list is longer than here given. It will be found in the appendix of this book.[3]"
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
Robson wrote:
The estimated age of 45 year old of the Atlanta mummy, attributed to Ramses I doesn't help much this hypothesis. It puts the future Pharaoh as a 30/32 year old at the beginning of Horemheb's reign, and 16/18 years old at the end of Akhenaten's. Unless his wife was at least 10/15 years older than him, she wouldn't be qualified, as a toddler, to be Ankhsenpaaten's wet-nurse.


Egyptian females in ancient times could become nubile (sexually active/marriageable) as early as 8 yoa, according to Janssen and Janssen. So, a female could give birth as early as 8-9 years and so, I would think that any female married to Ramses I as a military officer - who may have been 16-18 years old at the end of the Amarna reign of Akhenaten, would not have had any problem being a wet nurse to Tutankhamun, who was probably born about Year 12 or 13 Akhenaten.

One has to recall that both males and females matured earlier in ancient times than today.

On nubility of ancient Egyptian females:

Jannsen, J and R. Janssen. 2007. Growing Up and Getting Old in Ancient Egypt. London: Golden House Publications.

HTH.


I saw the following on the net just the other day:

http://kdvr.com/2013/02/07/9-year-old-gives-birth-in-mexico-17-year-old-father-has-fled/

The baby was born by c-section. I would imagine that the mortality rate for girls giving birth at such young ages in ancient Egypt would be high.

waenre
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
.
Nobody can tell me that a 8 or 9 year old girl had the mature body and wide pelvis of a grown woman even if menstruation had set in.


It just happened in Mexico:

http://www.examiner.com/article/9-year-old-mexican-girl-gives-birth-by-caesarian-section-father-on-the-run
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