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Can someone Breakdown This Glyph
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IronFist
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:31 am    Post subject: Can someone Breakdown This Glyph Reply with quote



a friend of mine stated that it meant:

It means you better speak Medew Netcher like the rest of us or else you are an enemy of the state

agree/disagree?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a representation of the "psDt - pDt", the Nine Bows Peoples. These are the traditional foreign and domestic enemies of the Egyptian king (also known by the symbolic representation of nine arches under the feet of the statues of the king or on his sandals). Nine is to see symbolic, as potency of the plural three, for all enemys in the world.

The representation seems to come from the NK (or later). From the 18th Dynasty on the bows are replaced by nine bound prisoners. Since Amenhotep III these are in canonic form the

1. HAw - nbw (Mediterranean people)

2. SAtjw (Upper Nubians ?)

3. tA - Sma (Upper Egyptian Enemys)

4. sxtjw - jm (Oasis Dwellers)

5. tA - mHw (Lower Egyptian Enenmys)

6. pDtjw - Sw (Eastern Desert ?)

7. THnw (Libyans)

8. jwntjw -
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Sorry, un-finished posted by mistake, here is the sequel...)


8. jwntjw - ztj (Nubians)

9. mntjw - nw - sTt (Asians).

(Source is LÄ IV. - 1982. - D. Wildung : Neunbogen. - Col. 472 - 3.)

During Ramesside periode this list is updated and expanded by Naharin, Hatti, Assur, Shasu, and others. The list can also be (depending on the context) completely redesigned and, for example, only city names include. In Ptolemaic times it becomes a symbol of the conquered enemies.

Greetings, Lutz.
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IronFist
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
(Sorry, un-finished posted by mistake, here is the sequel...)


8. jwntjw - ztj (Nubians)

9. mntjw - nw - sTt (Asians).

(Source is LÄ IV. - 1982. - D. Wildung : Neunbogen. - Col. 472 - 3.)

During Ramesside periode this list is updated and expanded by Naharin, Hatti, Assur, Shasu, and others. The list can also be (depending on the context) completely redesigned and, for example, only city names include. In Ptolemaic times it becomes a symbol of the conquered enemies.

Greetings, Lutz.


Hotep, so your saying that in the ptolemaic times it still would be the same.
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Aset
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



(Source: TLA)

Aset
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronFist wrote:
... so your saying that in the ptolemaic times it still would be the same.

Not I, Prof. Dietrich Wildung in his article in "Lexikon der Ägyptologie" (Vol. IV) from 1982. But he says nothing about which people / areas / countrys are listed in ptolemaic time. He generally speaks of the "conquered enemies of the Egyptian king".

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgotten... Tanck juh werie matsch, Aset ! Laughing (Wurde ja auch langsam Zeit... Razz )

Liebe Grüße, Lutz.
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IronFist
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what do you mean by NK?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NK = New Kingdom. You find this abrevelations for the kingdoms often in the literature.

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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Number 8 is obviously not from Asia. The island of Sehel in the south, at the first cataract, was called STt, as well.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The corresponding entrys from...

Rainer Hannig : Großes Handwörterbuch Ägyptisch-Deutsch - Die Sprache der Pharaonen (2800 - 950 v. Chr.). - [ Hannig-Lexica 1 - Kulturgeschichte der Antiken Welt 64]. - Mainz : von Zabern, 2006. - Marburger Ed., 4th, rev.Ed. - ISBN : 3-8053-1771-9. - XLIV, 1475, 20 p. - pp. 849 & 1187 :



Greetings, Lutz.
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IronFist
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what is the significance of the 9 people and how does it pertain to egypt?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronFist wrote:
what is the significance of the 9 people and how does it pertain to egypt?

See my post from Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:11 pm, here in this thread...
Quote:
"This is a representation of the "psDt - pDt", the Nine Bows Peoples. These are the traditional foreign and domestic enemies of the Egyptian king (also known by the symbolic representation of nine arches under the feet of the statues of the king or on his sandals). Nine is to see symbolic, as potency of the plural three, for all enemys in the world.

The representation seems to come from the NK (or later). From the 18th Dynasty on the bows are replaced by nine bound prisoners. ...

Lutz
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IronFist
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what im saying is why these races specifically and why were they considered domestic/foreign?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronFist wrote:
what im saying is why these races specifically and why were they considered domestic/foreign?

As I said, the "Nine Bows Nations" are in the beginning all enemies of the Egyptian king in general (at home and abroad). They are symbolically represented as nine arches under the feet of the ruler:

Statuebase Horus Netjeri-chet ( Djoser ) - Cairo JE 49889, Sakkara, 1926 (press "B" to see more pictures).

Starting in the New Kingdom the bows can be replaced by nine bound prisoners. The designations may change, they become concrete (special nations, ethnic groups, city names, etc.), adapted on the context in which that representations appear.

Lutz
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