Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

cleopatra
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3705
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleopatra dead? Really? Or did she do as an Egyptian d Reply with quote

Va Phenix wrote:
Lutz wrote:

Egyptian gods could certainly die. The best known example is the consort of Isis, Osiris.
Va Phenix wrote:
... Her complexity is demonstrated by the fact that she would were the ring of the goddess Methe *sp?* who was the goddess of drunkenness, but in the center was an amethyst stone, which stood for sobriety. By wearing the ring, she was displaying her mastery over alcohol. ...

With the name the goddess you mention I can not begin the slightest. And, from which source derived your statement about these ominous ring?
Va Phenix wrote:
... Basically what I am saying is ... when thinking about WHO Cleopatra was, we have to think outside the given information or documents that have been discovered. ...

If you want to write a more or less historical novel, sure...

Lutz
You are cute Lutz. Smile


I do not think you're the right person to judge this. Or do we know each other?

Va Phenix wrote:
... What I was trying to state was she die at the time the Romans stated she did. Smile...

And you bring your imagination as the only source for that ... Not enough for me, sorry.


Va Phenix wrote:
... I recently had to do a rhetorical paper in English class and The Search for Cleopatra, by Michael Foss was one of the books I used. His book is where I got the ring information from. ...

Since he was probably not an eyewitness / contemporary then he should name the source. If not, you can confidently take his statement in the trash...

Va Phenix wrote:
... I feel to better understand Egypt as a whole, one has to look at her last King Queen and what she did, as well as who she was. Smile

But I am not here (and not relly interested in) to read what you feel ... And, by the way, something like a "King Queen" has not existed in Ancient Egypt.

Lutz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Va Phenix
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah Lutz ... Confused I do not know you and I am new to this forum. Foss used the same sources most folk use when writing about Cleopatra, including ol' what his face, Plutarch.
I stated that you are "cute" only in the aspect that I like to keep things up beat and positive. For all I know, you are not cute in the slightest, but that is neither here nor there.
And according to what I read, Cleopatra did state herself as being a King Queen as well as Isis.
You are more than welcome to trash my thoughts, or expand upon them. That is YOUR journey, which will take you were YOU need to go. For me ... Wink ah for me ... with a name like Beth Page, all I ever sought was, is, and will forever more be, the truth. If I have to think outside the box or accepted viewpoints in order to get there, I will. I feel it is my job and or destiny to see things others miss because they are so concerned with coloring within the lines, or accepted ideas.

Keep in mind dear Lutz, all brilliant breakthroughs first start off as blasphemies.

I'm not saying my ideas are breakthroughs, but I will never know unless I test the waters.
_________________
With the wind we are connected. With the earth we are united. With the stars, we all see home.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3705
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can not give a halfway reasonable proof for any of your statements. Enough for a novel, but no more...

Lutz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Va Phenix
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From your viewpoint, I can see the truth in your statement, but as you do not know me and my experiences, I also realize and accept your viewpoint as limited.
Since you are from Germany, I am guessing you are aware of Hitler's obsession with the occult? He was a bad man, and yet he was open to the possibilities of more being out there than what is written.
As an example ... love has been written about more than once, but until you experience it, you will never fully grasp the meaning of love.
Ma'at, and all she represented, is all that I am looking for. hahaha And if I have to pluck the nerves of others to get there, I'm not worried in the slightest. Smile
Cheers!
_________________
With the wind we are connected. With the earth we are united. With the stars, we all see home.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3705
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry my dear, with "Maat" it has nothing to do what you are writing here ... More with "Isfet" and abundant much hubris and ignorance.

Lutz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Va Phenix
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Sorry my dear, with "Maat" it has nothing to do what you are writing here ... More with "Isfet" and abundant much hubris and ignorance.

Lutz

Ooouch!!! You are so negative. Ma'at has everything to do with everything I do. Truth! Simple, ugly, beautiful, confusing truth is all I am after.
Hubris?!? Occasionally, but it is the only way to understand the truth.
Ignorance? Ah, we all can be taught a thing or two, including yourself.
If you are a woman, then you are half way there. If you are a male, then, well ... that's why women are here to help you. Smile

Dearest Lutz, I am 47 years old and have bent boundaries you don't even know exist. I am not here to prove to you that it is wet when it rains or that it is cold when it snows. I am here to explore my path. The path that leads me to truth.

It's like watching the news or reading the newspaper ... all ancient documents only tell part of the truth, to figure the rest out, a person must "feel" what it was like, then work out the most likely scenario. My assumptions may be off, but they may lead to someone else coming up with something else that better explains the everythingness that I've been looking for.

You may be the kind of person the will only accept the written viewpoint and nothing else, and that's all well and good. But personally I find it sad because so many things in history have been proven wrong, just from one little thought. For instance: We could all still believe the world is flat and that earth is the center of the universe, if we didn't take a chance on something so out of the norm as being correct.

Without the freedom of thought and inner feelings to explore the randomness of life, then all we are left with is the unanswered dreams of those who came before us.
_________________
With the wind we are connected. With the earth we are united. With the stars, we all see home.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Va Phenix
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW!!! Ok ~ I just looked up Isfet because I was unfamiliar with her. And WOW!!! for you to say I am the counterpart of the term Ma'at (meaning “(world-) order” and/or “harmony”), just shows your automatic negativity.

This must be how you carry yourself in the world. Sad. Really sad. If you knew me in person, you would never be so bold to make such a statement.

I could play your game, and get this thread locked, but in all reality, the effort of going negative is just too much work.

If you REALLY knew how Egyptians were, the way they carried themselves and acted day by day toward others, then you would see that you are the pot calling the kettle black, for you are the true Isfet.

I am clear in my heart, knowing I did not cast a shadow upon you, while I am also a witness to how quickly you like to throw stones. Sad.
_________________
With the wind we are connected. With the earth we are united. With the stars, we all see home.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3705
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really pretty as you my estimate of hubris confirm with your last two posts ... And, by the way, I'm 48 and also already drawn quite a bit around the houses.

Lutz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Va Phenix
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Really pretty as you my estimate of hubris confirm with your last two posts ... And, by the way, I'm 48 and also already drawn quite a bit around the houses.

Lutz

Hmmm... I think there is a language differential here ... "you my estimate of hubris confirm with your last two posts" Are you saying I'm showing my hubris again?

"Drawn quite a bit around the houses.: Is this a reference to coloring outside the box of normal ideas?

Honestly Lutz, I believe we could benefit each other. I know I am often taken as flighty or kooky, and I'm ok with that. But I also know I am generous in warm feelings, even with strangers.

I do not wish to argue with you about something so small, but I also know who I am and I will defend my position, even if it is not fully understood by others.

We have both come to this site out of love. The love for Egypt and all her secrets. And in that thought, can we please be a bit more civil towards one another?

I love exploring other people's thoughts and ideas, especially from other countries, but I'm not going to accept things that aren't true in regards to who I am.
_________________
With the wind we are connected. With the earth we are united. With the stars, we all see home.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Va Phenix
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To help clarify any confusion about the ring and my statement, feel free to click on any of the links below or google methe and cleopatra for yourself.

Methe, the Bacchic Nymph of drunkeness
http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheMethe.html

Anthony, Cleopatra's lover, was said to be the new Dionysos, the great Olympian god of wine, vegetation, pleasure and festivity.

The book I referred to earlier by Moss is : http://books.google.com/books?id=gnpiTWKntQ8C&lpg=PA151&ots=Hduo_xrLmy&dq=goddess%20methe%20and%20cleopatra&pg=PA151#v=onepage&q=goddess%20methe%20and%20cleopatra&f=false

And for a final here you go, here's a link to the library of villanova in PA, USA
https://library.villanova.edu/Find/Summon/Search?lookfor=goddesses+and+queens&type=AllFields&filter[]=SubjectTerms%3A%22literary+criticism%22&view=list

All of which mention the ring.
[/list]
_________________
With the wind we are connected. With the earth we are united. With the stars, we all see home.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lutz
Pharaoh
Pharaoh


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3705
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Va Phenix wrote:
To help clarify any confusion about the ring and my statement, feel free to click on any of the links below or google methe and cleopatra for yourself.

Methe, the Bacchic Nymph of drunkeness
http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheMethe.html ...

In all of your posts you emphasize the Egyptian personality of Cleopatra VII. The way I have understood it you build your speculation on it. And now you come across with a Greek nymph?! What exactly do you want to say with that?

Va Phenix wrote:
... And for a final here you go, here's a link to the library of villanova in PA, USA
https://library.villanova.edu/Find/Summon/Search?lookfor=goddesses+and+queens&type=AllFields&filter[]=SubjectTerms%3A%22literary+criticism%22&view=list

All of which mention the ring.[/list]

If you have already made the trouble of googling the article then maybe you should had have also a look into the Abstract (the whole article is not for free): "... A QUATRAIN IN THE Greek Anthology describes a signet ring of amethyst that belonged to a Queen Cleopatra ...". We know seven Cleopatras as wifes of Ptolemaic Pharaos...

Lutz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Va Phenix
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Va Phenix wrote:
To help clarify any confusion about the ring and my statement, feel free to click on any of the links below or google methe and cleopatra for yourself.

Methe, the Bacchic Nymph of drunkeness
http://www.theoi.com/Nymphe/NympheMethe.html ...

In all of your posts you emphasize the Egyptian personality of Cleopatra VII. The way I have understood it you build your speculation on it. And now you come across with a Greek nymph?! What exactly do you want to say with that?

Va Phenix wrote:
... And for a final here you go, here's a link to the library of villanova in PA, USA
https://library.villanova.edu/Find/Summon/Search?lookfor=goddesses+and+queens&type=AllFields&filter[]=SubjectTerms%3A%22literary+criticism%22&view=list

All of which mention the ring.[/list]

If you have already made the trouble of googling the article then maybe you should had have also a look into the Abstract (the whole article is not for free): "... A QUATRAIN IN THE Greek Anthology describes a signet ring of amethyst that belonged to a Queen Cleopatra ...". We know seven Cleopatras as wifes of Ptolemaic Pharaos...

Lutz

1st ~ I didn't "run across" the nymph. What actually happened was I misstated the issue of Methe being a goddess instead of a nymph. I researched the source just for you and boom, in comes the negativity instead of the "Thank you for taking the time." This ONE simple comparison I used with Methe and the ring, is just ONE example. As I am new here, I have to start somewhere.

2nd ~ Oy! The article may not be free, but I also listed the book in which I originally found the source. I was just trying to show that I wasn't being bogus in my statement.

Logically ~ Anthony was the lover of Cleopatra VII ~ Legendary ~ Anthony was known as Dionysus and Cleopatra as the New Isis ~ Historically ~ Anthony was a drinker, and yet there is no indication of Cleopatra being a drunk, even as she drank with him and traveled on his "disguised" romps through the city.

Keep your stick in your position and learn nothing or open your door to the logical truth that surround my points.

You are a Peter, aka a stone. Where as I am a (Cleo)petra, a stone wall.

It is my desire to learn from this site and from everyone's experience, without negating everything they post.

I thought I found a place where I could share my love for a common place, but if you are the true representation of this site, and or others like it, then I must conclude, humanity is lost.
_________________
With the wind we are connected. With the earth we are united. With the stars, we all see home.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can't dismiss all the sources about cleopatra in one statement and then rely on information written by an author who used those same sources.

secondly, cleopatra grew up in a greek court in a greek city in greek occupied egypt. the elite spoke greek in her time, and they dressed like them. cleopatra only ever dresed like an egyptian, on religous occassions, and only then, when she dressed as a hellenised form of isis. she spoke egyptian, and governed the state, but di not have anything else in common with the people.

i suggest you pick up a few books on cleopatra, such as joyce tyldesley's one. and adrian goldworthy did a good one on antony and cleopatra, though he dismisses many of the legends concerning them.
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Va Phenix
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 19 May 2013
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
you can't dismiss all the sources about cleopatra in one statement and then rely on information written by an author who used those same sources.

secondly, cleopatra grew up in a greek court in a greek city in greek occupied egypt. the elite spoke greek in her time, and they dressed like them. cleopatra only ever dresed like an egyptian, on religous occassions, and only then, when she dressed as a hellenised form of isis. she spoke egyptian, and governed the state, but di not have anything else in common with the people.

i suggest you pick up a few books on cleopatra, such as joyce tyldesley's one. and adrian goldworthy did a good one on antony and cleopatra, though he dismisses many of the legends concerning them.


I'm not out and out dismissing the sources Kyle, I'm reading between the lines. As a random example, if the only information we have about Lady Diana came from the National Inquirer, it is easy to see that the Inquirer is only going to state the most slanted version of who Lady Diana is/was.

As most of the information about Cleopatra comes at least 50 years after her death, by men who don't hold women in the highest of regard in the first place, and had their own personal agenda, not reading between the lines leaves a person less informed.

And as I'm sure you know, Cleopatra spoke at least 9 different languages. She performed at lest one known ceremony the Egyptian way when a Sacred Bull in the South died. In the end, she won the hearts of her Egyptian people.

Greek state yes, in an Egyptian nation. Everyone from Alexandra the Great to Julius Caesar himself, were changed or rather affected by Egypt.

Trying to take Egypt out of the Greek/Egyptian Queen is like taking "love" out of the word "glove." All you are left with is "G."

I find it ironically funny how the focus is on Greek and Romans, and yet no one here attempts to use philosophy like they did back in the day, by trying to weigh the possibilities of what could have been.

I guess you all have been beaten so much by other "knowledgeable" folks for so long, that you have forgotten how to surmise possibilities because "they aren't written."

Julius Caesar started as a priest himself, and cut open animals to interpret the "signs" of the animal's entrails. Religion had a lot to do with everything that happened back then.

Cleopatra as the New Isis indicates she was the Head of the temples. A chief Priest, if you will, and performed tasks that are involved in such a position.

Anyway, there is nothing that will open your ears and that is sad. But to each his or her own.

peace
_________________
With the wind we are connected. With the earth we are united. With the stars, we all see home.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kylejustin
Vizier
Vizier


Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Posts: 1231
Location: victoria, australia

PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Va Phenix wrote:
As most of the information about Cleopatra comes at least 50 years after her death, by men who don't hold women in the highest of regard in the first place, and had their own personal agenda, not reading between the lines leaves a person less informed. And as I'm sure you know, Cleopatra spoke at least 9 different languages.


reading between the lines is subjective and personal. what you interpret and what anyone else interprets are separate. you are pushing a 21st century opinion on roman writers. it was classical culture to think of women as inferior, that is why cleopatra fascinated them, that's why her reputation is so grand. cleopatra spoke 7 languages, not 9.

Va Phenix wrote:
Greek state yes, in an Egyptian nation. Everyone from Alexandra the Great to Julius Caesar himself, were changed or rather affected by Egypt. Trying to take Egypt out of the Greek/Egyptian Queen is like taking "love" out of the word "glove." All you are left with is "G."


what has this got to do with cleopatra being of greek and descent and raised culturally greek? she was seen as an eastern queen by the romans, egyptian yes, but not egyptian in the way nefertiti is egyptian. egypt was hellenised by this time, and would become roman, then arab.
_________________
heaven won't take me.......hell's afraid i'll take over.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Pharaohs and Queens All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group