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Va Phenix
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kylejustin wrote:
reading between the lines is subjective and personal. what you interpret and what anyone else interprets are separate. you are pushing a 21st century opinion on roman writers. it was classical culture to think of women as inferior, that is why cleopatra fascinated them, that's why her reputation is so grand. cleopatra spoke 7 languages, not 9.


Thank you for the update on the languages. I recall reading she spoke 9. But I disagree with putting a 21st century opinion twist on how women were thought of in Egypt. According to Stacy Schiff and her book Cleopatra – A Life, "the stark differences to how women were nearly equal to men in Egypt, compared to the rest of the ancient world. She estimated that Alexandria, Egypt was populated by one-third of women who owned businesses, land, slaves, ships, and stores, regardless of whether they were single, married, or divorced."
Stacy Schiff is a winner of the Pulitzer Prize for another book entitled, Vera (Mrs. Vladimir Nabokov). She is also a Pulitzer Prize finalist, winner of the George Washington Book Prize and the Ambassador Book Award.
So I believe she has researched her sources to make such a statement.
Va Phenix wrote:
Greek state yes, in an Egyptian nation. Everyone from Alexandra the Great to Julius Caesar himself, were changed or rather affected by Egypt. Trying to take Egypt out of the Greek/Egyptian Queen is like taking "love" out of the word "glove." All you are left with is "G."


kylejustin wrote:
what has this got to do with cleopatra being of greek and descent and raised culturally greek? she was seen as an eastern queen by the romans, egyptian yes, but not egyptian in the way nefertiti is egyptian. egypt was hellenised by this time, and would become roman, then arab.


It doesn't matter your nationality when it comes to Egypt. Anyone, even now in the 21st century, when they visit Egypt, are changed/inspired/awed.
I think part of the problem in trying to figure things out about AE is people put too much emphasis on the Greek and Roman aspects of the way things were. Sometimes things can be so subtle it's missed.

For instance, I'm an American who lives in Virginia. Virginia is considered the start for the south part of America. Sometimes people in the north and people in the south clash because of simple misunderstandings. Northern folks are apt to get directly to the point, whereas southerns have a tendency to circle a subject before getting to the point.

The Egyptian religious view was still going on during Cleopatra's reign. Her kinfolk even invented the god Seraphis (sp?) a god that was a combination of zues and Ptah or Thoth (I'd have to look back at my notes for accuracy, sorry)
Any way, thanks for your comments.
Peace
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instead of "reading between the lines", you might want first read the lines themselves. Your posts reveal glaring gaps in knowledge (Maat - Isfet dualism) and superficial knowledge, obviously taken from popular scientific literature. The Pulitzer Prize is not awarded for outstanding achievements in the field of historical research or Egyptology...

As I suspected after reading the abstract from Gutzwiller : Cleopatra's Ring. - In: Greek, Roman and Byzantine Studies 36-4. - 1995. - p. 383, the author may not prove that the ring was owned by Cleopatra VII., pure speculation. The book by Foss has no bibliography - very handy if you want to avoid annoying ask about the sources for your statements...

A word "King Queen" does not exist in ancient Egyptian language. Even a word "Queen" is not existing. What we translate with "Queen" (Hemet-Nesut-Weret) means "Great Wife of the King". So, show me the ancient text where Cleopatra calls herself "King Queen".

Serapis (actually Osirapis) is an Egyptian deity, a special form of Osiris probably arose from the abstraction of the deceased Apis bulls under Nectanebo II., localised in Memphis. Ptolemaios I brough the cult to Alexandria. He was hellenised (appearance and characteristics of Zeus were transferred to this god) to give the Greek and the Egyptian people a common god and Alexandria a god for the city.

The relative freedom and equal treatment of women in legal matters based on ancient Egyptian law (Herodot visited the Late Egyptian, not the Ptolemaic). With the takeover of power by the Ptolemies Greek law was introduced, without that the Egyptian law was eliminated. Therefore logically be observed under the Ptolemies deterioration of the legal status of women, as the documents show. A clear note is the almost complete disappearance of titles for women, while they remain an important part in similar documents for men, as before.

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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lutz has answered some good points here, so just acknowledging his post.

Va Phenix wrote:
But I disagree with putting a 21st century opinion twist on how women were thought of in Egypt.


you misinterpreted my quote. (see how easy it is?) i said that you are enforcing a 21st century western conception on an ancient ROMAN people. i never said anything about ancient egyptian attitudes towards women. cleopatra was a woman. a powerful, foreign queen in her own right, who bumped off her 2 brothers to attain sole power, and had extra marital affairs with other men. this point of view, maneater if you will, did not fit comfortably with the greek and roman view of women being kept at home spinning wool and doing whatever their husband asked of them. therefore cleopatra was an anomaly, and the romans had no real idea of what to do with her.

Va Phenix wrote:
I think part of the problem in trying to figure things out about AE is people put too much emphasis on the Greek and Roman aspects of the way things were. Sometimes things can be so subtle it's missed.


if your talking about the period after 332 bc then you are discussing an egypt vastly different to ancient egypt. the conquest of egypt and persia by alexander the great changed things dramatically. egypt became a greek province. therefore the government was greek, and laws and other changes were done in the greek as well. lutz has explained this wonderfully. but cleopatra and ancient egypt do not fit as one concept. most egyptologists consider ancient egypt to end in 332 bc. after that is called the ptoelmaic period, and after 30 bc is called the roman period. because those two cultures eclipsed the native egyptian one.
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your polite responses. I'm a bit busy today, and don't have time to fully comment, but I do have a request.

Since you all are far more educated than me, who looks into AE history as a hobby, I'm wondering if you know or have a link concerning the last meeting between Cleopatra and Octavian. From what I've read, it seems at least three people were present: Cleopatra, Octavian, and Cleopatra's servant, whom she beat because of informing Octavian about some jewels she left off of her list.

I would like to know if more people were present, and what documents have been found concerning this meeting.

I thank you in advance.
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Va Phenix wrote:
... Since you all are far more educated than me, who looks into AE history as a hobby, ...

As far as I know, and with the exception of Neseret and SydneyF (student?) we all do this as hobby and nobody here has said you are less educated than we. I have merely stated that I think you have obvious lack of basic knowledge. However, if you then pretend you knew better than anyone here what it was like in ancient Egypt because you read between the lines, already balk up my nape hair.

I know that I have some guys nerve here when I ask for evidence. But I also know that there are a whole series of members who are happy to get reasonably halfway reliable info...

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Va Phenix
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Va Phenix wrote:
... Since you all are far more educated than me, who looks into AE history as a hobby, ...

As far as I know, and with the exception of Neseret and SydneyF (student?) we all do this as hobby and nobody here has said you are less educated than we. I have merely stated that I think you have obvious lack of basic knowledge. However, if you then pretend you knew better than anyone here what it was like in ancient Egypt because you read between the lines, already balk up my nape hair.

I know that I have some guys nerve here when I ask for evidence. But I also know that there are a whole series of members who are happy to get reasonably halfway reliable info...

Lutz

I got cha Lutz. I completely understand. I realized, when reading Moss, he did not have much documentation to back up his story, which is why I looked at two other books at the same time. One being Stacy Schiffs book.
I am a dual type personality meaning, I'm an artist who walks hand in hand with my logical side. I love the way I think, but I also know I can come off flighty and arrogant at the same time.
Because of my name, Beth Page, and the unusual experiences I have had in my life, I went searching for answers. Everything I've looked at for the past 10 years, points to Egypt. I've skimmed over things from 10,000 BC up to Cleopatra's time, and a smidge beyond it.
There is NO way I can be as accurate and name specific as you and Kyle, which is why I'm glad you all are here, and that I've found this site.
I poked around on several threads before signing up and I was impressed, which is why I joined.
Your and Kyle's responses with the documentation is indeed what I need and want to help satisfy my logical side. But the artist in me ... well ... Smile that part of me studies the mist that surrounds the facts. It has proved to be reliable and eye opening. Any many, many times, most folks don't want to agree with anything I say, even when similar odd things happen to them afterward. And that's ok. That's their journey and this is mine. Smile

So ... do either one of you know if there was more than 3 people in the room when Cleopatra and Octavian met with her after Antony's death? And do you have any of that wonderful documentation concerning it?

Thank you in advance.
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speculation and a little artistic freedom here in the forum are absolutely no problem (within the framework of forum rules, as Kevin already fits on). But I stay in such discussions rather reserved. After 35 years of amateur Egyptologist I'm more interested in the facts and the latest research in general.

Va Phenix wrote:
... So ... do either one of you know if there was more than 3 people in the room when Cleopatra and Octavian met with her after Antony's death? And do you have any of that wonderful documentation concerning it? ...

I do not think there are really contemporary documents. There are only the descriptions by the known Roman authors. But maybe Neseret or Kyle know more, Ptolemaic Period is not really my time... I know (and saw) that there was identified some years ago a handwritten notice by Cleopatra VII. on a administrative document, here in Berlin museum.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To match the theme I just received the advance notice of a major exhibition at the Kunsthalle Bonn, 28th June to 6 October 2013: "Kleopatra - Die ewige Diva" (Cleopatra - The Eternal Diva).
Quote:
"Kaum eine historische Persönlichkeit wird in der Öffentlichkeit so kontrovers wahrgenommen wie Kleopatra VII., Ägyptens letzte Herrscherin (69–30 v. Chr.). Ihre Schönheit ist legendär. Sie gilt als hochgebildet und verführerisch, machtbewusst und durchtrieben, unberechenbar und mutig. Ihr bewegtes Leben und ihre schillernde Persönlichkeit inspirieren bis heute zahlreiche Schriftsteller, Maler und Musiker. Seit über 2000 Jahren erschafft jede Epoche ihr unverwechselbares Kleopatra-Bild. Es hinterfragt nicht nur die unterschiedlichen Weiblichkeitsmodelle, sondern auch die kulturellen, politischen und gesellschaftlichen Anliegen ihrer Entstehungszeit. Diese erstaunliche Tatsache bietet den Ausgangspunkt für unsere interdisziplinär angelegte Ausstellung. Sie zeigt die vielen Gesichter der Kleopatra von der Antike bis in die aktuelle Popkultur. Herausragende Werke der Skulptur, Malerei, Fotografie, Film- und Videokunst verlocken den Betrachter zu einer Spurensuche in Zeit und Raum, die auch Fragen nach der eigenen Identität aufwirft."

Google:
Quote:
"Hardly a historical personality is perceived by the public as controversial as Cleopatra VII, last ruler of Egypt (69-30 BC). Her beauty is legendary. It is regarded as highly educated and seductive, makes conscious and cunning, unpredictable and courageous. Her busy life and her sparkling personality inspire today many writers, painters and musicians. For over 2000 years each epoch creates its distinctive Cleopatra picture. It questions not only the different models femininity, but also the cultural, political and social concerns of the era. This amazing fact provides the starting point for our interdisciplinary exhibition. It shows the many faces of Cleopatra from ancient times to the current pop culture. Outstanding works of sculpture, painting, photography, film and video art entice the viewer to search for clues in time and space, which also raises questions about her own identity."

A catalog (336 p., 360 color illustrations, 45,- €) will be available soon. Normally the Kunsthalle Bonn gives also a catalog - version in English...

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have read many biographies from libraries, but my own personal books, which i recommend if you can buy them or loan them are:

1) the last queens of egypt by sally ann ashton, 2003.
2) antony and cleopatra by adrian goldsworthy, 2010. my edition 2011.
3) cleopatra last queen of egypt by joyce tyldesley, 2008. my edition is 2009.

each book tries to use source material as close to her time as possible, and each tries to show her in a light different from the sexual temptress of liz taylor fame. therefore you have many differing opinions on certain 'facts' and legends attached to her name.

this is a summary of what tyldesley says about octavian's dealings when he entered alexandria p.186-7:

she locked herself in the mausoleum with eiras and charmian. some classical sources mention an unnamed eunuch. antony was brought to her by her servant diomedes. octavian sent gaius proculeius to get her out of the mausoluem (to stop her burning her treasure). while distracted by cornelius gallus, gaius climbed in through the window. at this point she stabbed herself wich was not fatal, but she got an infection as a result and was moved to the palace.

recuperating in the palace, where she is trying to starve herself, she had an audience with octavian. she was under the care of epaphroditus, but it is not stated if he was present in the book. a servant seleucus told octavian she left things off her list of goods, in which response cleopatra stated they were presents for octavia and livia. apart from this, there isn't much mentioned, asides from giving dio and plutarch's version of the same story. goldsworthy, being a roman historian, may have been detailed on this part.
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found this shorter article on my HDD, so I can give a full quote... B. Baldwin : The Death of Cleopatra VII. - In: JEA 50. - 1964. - p. 181 - 182:

Quote:
The Death of Cleopatra VII

In his article on this subject (JEA 47 (I96I), 113-18 ), J. Gwyn Griffiths adduces various classical authors for his belief that Cleopatra used two snakes instead of one for her suicide. I should like to challenge some of his interpretations and assumptions.

His first passage is from Virgil's description of the Battle of Actium. He cites Aen. 8, 697: necdum etiam geminos a tergo respicit angues. He objects to the view of Henry, which he seems to know only from T. L. Page's note, that the angues gemini are a regular symbol of death and do not refer specifically to Cleopatra's suicide. He notes en passant that Henry had adduced parallel passages from the Aeneid, but does not cite them; instead he hastens to claim that 'the glaring objection to all this is the fact that Virgil's adjacent lines refer to the sistrum, to omnigenum deum monstra, and to latrator Anubis. An Egyptian allusion is plainly demanded in geminos angues.' He is far too eager to prove his point. The first of Henry's parallels was Aen. 2, 203-4, which refers to the gemini angues that came out of the sea to destroy Laocoon at Troy. Henry's other main parallel is Aen. 7, 450, describing the vision sent to Turnus by Allecto. Here the hideous vision has geminos angues; what is more, Turnus is ordered to gaze upon the horrid spectacle by the imperative respice, the same verb as that used in the first Cleopatra passage. This triple repetition of gemini angues is surely significant. They all presage doom, for Laocoon and Troy, for Turnus and his clan, for Cleopatra and Egypt. Virgil deliberately uses the same symbol in these three manifestations of the same context of impending death. Nor is an Egyptian allusion demanded, as Griffiths asserts, by the adjacent lines. The snakes as a symbol of death are most apposite in the context of an Egyptian queen who has relied upon the aid of animal deities against the gods of Rome. This is the ironical point Virgil is making. And, in so far as the allusion is to the defeat of Cleopatra, the demand for an Egyptian allusion is satisfied!The passages from Horace (Odes I, 37, 26-8 ) and Propertius (3, 11, 53-4) can be taken together.

Propertius certainly is referring to the depiction of Cleopatra's suicide carried in Augustus' triumph; Griffith notes this interpretation by Butler and Barber with apparent approval. But even if two snakes were shown in the representation, this would not prove that two were actually used. Griffiths will not allow that poets exaggerate for effect, but he can hardly deny that military conquerors frequently do! In fact, it is not legitimate for Griffiths to adduce Plutarch, Antony 86, for the artistic representation, as he does (p. 116). I say this because in his account Plutarch uses the singular 'asp' in his Greek for the depiction. Griffiths, who ridicules the explanation of the Horatian passage as 'plural for singular' as being a mere 'grammatical refuge', can hardly use this Plutarch singular to account for poetic plurals!

The other question I wish to ask in this communication is this: did Cleopatra really die by the bite of an asp, or asps ? Griffiths mentions Plutarch (Ant. 86) and Dio Cassius (5 I, 14) as sources for the one-asp theory. But both these authors cast doubt on the very tradition. Plutarch says that those who believed in the asp theory claimed that the snake was smuggled in to her in a bowl of figs. Yet nobody could find the asp in the room afterwards! Cleopatra's corpse only showed two small punctures.

A rival theory was that she took poison from a hollow comb which she wore. So Plutarch. Dio is even more sceptical. He says that no one really knew the cause of death. Upholders of the asp theory make no mention of a bowl of figs, but believed in a water jar or a bowl of flowers as having secreted the reptile. The other view was that Cleopatra used a poisoned hairpin. Earlier (5I, I) Dio notes that Cleopatra had been known to keep asps 'and other reptiles (eppieta)' with a view to using them for suicide, but he will go no further than this. What he does say is that, upon the demise of Cleopatra, a eunuch killed himself by the bite of snakes; but he uses the word eppietois, not 'asp'.

Augustus certainly believed in the asp theory. Dio says that he tried to revive her by the use of Ps'ylli, tribal medicine men famed for their ability to suck out poison from snake bites, but in vain.
This story is also given by Suetonius (Aug. 17). I have no desire to prove that Cleopatra could not have perished by the bite of one or more snakes, and I accept many of Griffiths' religious reasons as plausible. But his classical testimonia for his two-snake theory do not prove anything. Moreover, in writing such an article, he should surely have noted alternative theories about Cleopatra's death which are just as ancient and just as well-founded as the asp tradition.

B. BALDWIN

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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the direct answer by J. GWYN GRIFFITHS : The death of Cleopatra VII: A rejoinder and a postscript. - In: JEA 51. - 1965. - p. 209 - 211:
Quote:
DR. B. BALDWIN does well to remind us in his brief communication (JEA 50 (1964), I8I f.) that there was more than one ancient theory about Cleopatra's death. In writing my article (JEA 47 (1961), 113-18 ) I was fully aware of this and duly cited Stahelin in PW(I92I), s.v. Kleopatra, 777-8 as a good survey of the classical evidence. Attention was concentrated, however, on the theory which has become almost a communios pinio.

Dr. Baldwin complains that Henry's parallels to Aen. viii. 697 were not cited. The complaint is groundless: see my p. 16. Certainly the elucidation of Virgil's use of gemini angues four times (not three, as Dr. Baldwin states) is a matter of some relevance if it can be shown that in all four cases they have an identical significance. Henry justly emphasizes the similarity of locution in Aen. vii. 454 where Allecto tells Turnus respice ad haec and in Aen. viii. 697 where it is said of Cleopatra Nectum etiam geminos a tergo respicit angues; but when he talks of the '"geminos angues" which Allecto commanded Turnus to look at and consider' he is violating both grammar and sense. Haec is neuter and refers to what follows:

respice ad haec: adsum dirarum ab sede sororum, bella manu letumque gero.

Henry is equally unconvincing when he goes on to argue that in all four instances Virgil intends the gemini angues to be regarded as merely presaging doom. In the case of Allecto they are simply two of the serpents which are raised (from among many) on the Fury's head; in the case of Laocoon and his sons (Aen. ii. 203-4) they are serpentst hat actuallyk ill; in Aen. viii. 289, quite differently,t hey are serpents that are killed by Hercules, and Henry's theory is but feebly defended when he urges that even these 'were typical of evil fate in store for Hercules, and only averted by the precocious might of the infant hero, who, strangling the evil messengers, averted the omen'. Cleopatra's serpents in Aen. viii. 697 merely indicate, according to Henry, 'that her death and ruin are impending', although he admits that commentators and translators before him have been unanimous in referring them to the mode of Cleopatra's death, while being puzzled, at the same time, why two and not one should be mentioned. Heyne's approachw as wiser: Sequiter forte Virgilius famam aliquamd, uose ar anguess ibia dmovisseS. uch a tradition I have shown to be consonant with Egyptian iconography and thought, and the manifest variety of background from which Virgil draws his gemini angues encourages the belief that in his allusion to Cleopatra's death he was showing familiarity with a very specific tradition. Dr. Baldwin himself would like to posit Virgil's acquaintance with a little Egyptian background ('The snakes as a symbol of death are most apposite in the context of an Egyptian queen who has relied upon the aid of animal deities against the gods of Rome').
It is surely preferable to give the snakes a less vague significance and to make them still more apposite as the Egyptian royal uraei.
As for the plurals used by Horace and Propertius, Dr. Baldwin glides over these with a smoothness that is almost serpentine. He admits that Propertius is referring to the depiction of Cleopatra's suicide, but maintains that 'even if two snakes were shown in the representation, this would not prove that two were actually used'. He suggests that Augustus, like other military conquerors, was exaggerating for effect. Apparently we now have to entertain a new category, the 'military plural'.
But the sense of its application here is rather mysterious. If Cleopatra was depicted as killing herself with two snakes rather than the truthful one, how could this exaggeration have redounded to the glory of her conqueror? It might well have been construed rather as a token of the queen's determination to end her life indubitably. Certainly Horace, who also uses a plural, lauds her proud courage: non humilis mulier. The plural, however, is more likely to derive from historic fact, and not from the ability of a general or a poet to multiply by two.
Finally, Dr. Baldwin objects to my citation of Plut. Ant. 86 in connexion with the image of Cleopatra which was carried in the triumph, as though I had interpreted this to imply a reference to two asps. But shortly after this citation I specifically said, 'One asp is mentioned by the great
majority of sources, including Plutarch, Ant. 85-86 .. .'.
It would seem appropriate to add here a few remarks on other related matters. I am indebted to Mr. Bernard V. Bothmer for comments on points relating to statuary and reliefs. For the use of the double uraeus with queens he refers to Roeder's important study, Statuen ägyptischer Königinnen (Leipzig, 1932, Vorderasiatisch-ägyptische Gesellschaft, Mitt. 37, 2). With regard to the possible occurrence of Cleopatra as Hathor-Isis in a relief at Dendera (my p. i I8, n. 2), Mr. Bothmer would explain this figure as Isis and would see Cleopatra herself 'behind the king on the far left', in which case the queen is here shown with a single uraeus. My pi. ix, 2 = Berlin 10114, described as 'a Ptolemaic queen', following the caption noted in the museum, is dated by Mr. Bothmer to an earlier era; he refers to this statue in his Egyptian Sculpture of the Late Period (Brooklyn Museum, 1960), I26, though without allusion to its date, and his view seems to be shared by J. Vandier, 'Trois statues egyptiennes au Musee du Louvre', La Revue du Louvre et des Musees de France, 11 (1961), 250, n. 28, a study brought to my knowledge also by Mr. Bothmer. My p. II7, n. 6 refers to a statue in Leningrad, the Hermitage, no. 136: this I likewise examined in the museum itself, but the number in general use seems to be 3936. It is described in the museum as a statue of Arsinoe II and is discussed by Bothmer, op. cit. 126, where he concludes that the work, 'if indeed it was meant to represent Arsinoe II, was probably created in her memory, for her cult'. In communications to me (June 20 and October I, 1962) Mr. Bothmer expresses the revised view, based on a scrutiny in Leningrad, that the statue does not represent the queen at all. I am very happy to acknowledge Mr. Bothmer's authority on these points. They do not affect the conclusions reached, as he himself remarks.
The view was expressed in my article that Iras and Charmion probably took poison. The possibility that they were killed by the same two cobras as Cleopatra used (if I am right) seemed to be excluded by the statement made by Bevan, A History of Egypt under the Ptolemaic Dynasty (London, 1927), 382, n. 2, where he is summarizing N6ldeke: 'A snake, when it has once ejected its poison in a bite, does not secrete more poison till after a considerable period of time.' Bevan observes too that Galen, De Ther. ad Pisonem, says that the maidservants died by snake-bite. In a letter to me (March 23, 1962) the late G. A. Wainwright questioned the validity of Noldeke's statement:
'... when I accompanied a snake charmer on his rounds clearing snakes from the Zoo gardens at Gizeh, he caught a great cobra and immediately made it bite his cloak to free it from poison. The first bite produced quite a flood, the second quite a lot, but by the third bite only a small quantity
came, then the creature was harmless. But it took three bites to empty his poison sacs.' If this is generally true of cobras, then two of them could have quickly destroyed three persons, and it may be that the maids wanted to share in the manner of the queen's death. On the other hand, there was something distinctively royal about that, and the maids would have known as much. Probably, therefore, they drank poison.

As I still said, it is not really my time. So I give just the quotes for information...

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And at last, two Ph.D. / Thesis, I also found on my computer HDD (available from UMI via Pro Quest)...

Linda Maurine Ricketts : The Administration of Ptolemaic Egypt under Cleopatra VII (University of Minnesota, Ph.D., 1980)

Marsha A. Decker : Language, gender, and power - Cleopatra VII of Egypt, Christine de Pizan, and Queen Elizabeth I of England (Thesis, Master of Art, Stephenville, Texas, 2012)

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And another interesting book, a collection of all classical sources in translation...

Prudence J. Jones : Cleopatra - A Sourcebook. - [Oklahoma Series in Classical Culture 31]. - Oklahoma : University of Oklahoma Press, Norman, 2006 [1971]. - Includes bibliographical references and index. - ISBN : 0-8061-3741-X. - 345 p.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Va Phenix
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most AWESOME! guys. Now I have more books to look at. Thank you both so very much!

Lutz, could you clarify what "gemini angues" means for me? I am unfamiliar with the term.

Thank you for everything.

Cheers!
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On second thought, never mind Lutz. I googled it the first time and it wouldn't come up for me properly because I put angues before gemini. Once I fixed it, it gave me the meaning I was looking for. Smile
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