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cleopatra
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The book from Prudence J. Jones : Cleopatra - A Sourcebook (2006) must be online (and also for download) somewhere ... Because I have it as PDF in very good quality. Maybe on Academia.edu ?

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Va Phenix
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much Lutz! By chance, do you know if any of these source books or papers discuss the animosity between Herod and Cleopatra?
I read at one point, he came to her for help and she graciously offered him a commission which he declined. Then he went to Rome to help his cause. After that, it seems they didn't really like each other.
I know Cleopatra wanted his territory and Anthony refused to give it to her, but he also gave her territories near Herod's land. Herod was responsible for providing Cleopatra with most/part of the income from the bitmin and olive groves.
Is that were their conflict came from?
Thank you in advance and again for everything you guys have provided.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I still wrote, it is not really my time period. A short search on my HDD´s found this article...

Robert L. Hohlfelder : Beyond Coincidence Marcus Agrippa and King Herod's Harbor. - In: Journal of Near Eastern Studies 59-4. - 2000. - pp. 241 - 253, on p. 241:
Quote:
"... The Jewish king had suffered the awkward and potentially fatal misfortune of being one of Antony's allies in the recent civil war that culminated in Octavian's great naval victory at Actium in 31 B.C., even though he had cleverly avoided an appearance at the actual hostilities (Dio 50.33.3-35). Herod's relationship and friendship with Antony had suffered in the 30s as Cleopatra VII's influence on the Roman general had grown (AJ 15.189). (2) She clearly coveted his kingdom, had been successful in whittling away pieces of it, and most likely would have eventually acquired it if Actium had turned out differently (BJ 1.360).

Although the king had more to lose if Antony won, he nevertheless technically ruled in the east at Antony's pleasure and was on the list of those who had opposed Octavian (BJ 1.386). When the victor at Actium turned his attention to the client-kings who had supported his enemy, he had to consider Herod's future and his tenure as King of the Jews. The sole ruler of the Roman world summoned the Jewish king to the island of Rhodes in 30 B.C. to determine his future and that of his kingdom (BJ 1.387). ...

... (2) Antony was once an enthusiastic supporter of Herod and was responsible for making him King of Judaea. Josephus tells us he was "zealous" in supporting him before Octavian (BJ 14.385-86). The king, of
course, could not compete with the "special" relationship that developed between Antony and Cleopatra. See also Holum and Hohlfelder, King Herod's Dream, pp. 56-57. ..."

Will keep eyes open, if I find something more I will post...

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By my search I came across the source for this "Queen of Kings" thing. In 34 B.C. there was a ceremony in the Gymnasium in Alexandria. There the idea of an Hellenic-Egyptian Great Kingdom was announced, manifested by the assignment of dominions to Cleopatra and her children.

Cleopatra was confirmed as direct regent for Egypt and Cyprus and received the epithet "Queen of Kings". Parallel her son with Ceasar, Ptolemy XV Caisarion, co-regent for 10 years and in Egypt the official owner of the office of the Pharaoh (see the depiction on the back wall outside the Hathor-Temple in Dendera: Cleopatra with Hathor Crown and sistrum follows her son with Double Crown, who performs the offering), was called from then also "King of Kings". It is therefore not an real Egyptian title. It is a construct, that more likely expresses the future planning of Cleopatra and Antony.

Source is Günther Hölbl : Geschichte des Ptolemäerreiches - Politik, Ideologie und religiöse Kultur von Alexander dem Großen bis zur römischen Eroberung. - Stuttgart : Theiss, [1994] 2004. - Spec. Rev. Ed. of the 1st from 1994. - ISBN : 3-8062-1868-4. - XXXII, 414 p., on page 219.

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Va Phenix
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
By my search I came across the source for this "Queen of Kings" thing. In 34 B.C. there was a ceremony in the Gymnasium in Alexandria. There the idea of an Hellenic-Egyptian Great Kingdom was announced, manifested by the assignment of dominions to Cleopatra and her children.

Cleopatra was confirmed as direct regent for Egypt and Cyprus and received the epithet "Queen of Kings". Parallel her son with Ceasar, Ptolemy XV Caisarion, co-regent for 10 years and in Egypt the official owner of the office of the Pharaoh (see the depiction on the back wall outside the Hathor-Temple in Dendera: Cleopatra with Hathor Crown and sistrum follows her son with Double Crown, who performs the offering), was called from then also "King of Kings". It is therefore not an real Egyptian title. It is a construct, that more likely expresses the future planning of Cleopatra and Antony.

Source is Günther Hölbl : Geschichte des Ptolemäerreiches - Politik, Ideologie und religiöse Kultur von Alexander dem Großen bis zur römischen Eroberung. - Stuttgart : Theiss, [1994] 2004. - Spec. Rev. Ed. of the 1st from 1994. - ISBN : 3-8062-1868-4. - XXXII, 414 p., on page 219.

Greetings, Lutz.

Thank you Lutz. Smile I knew I read that phrase somewhere.
My time is limited today, but I wanted to let you know I appreciate your effort to research the term. Smile
Cheers!
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes one should also look in his own library of printed books ... I have a biography of Cleopatra, written in 2011 by an German Egyptologist (Sabine Kubisch, University Heidelberg) and an Old-Historian (Hilmar Klinkott, University Tübingen). On pages 88 & 89 they write a little about the relations between Cleopatra - Marc Antony - Herod. They come to the conclusion that the report from Flavius Josephus about the relationship between Cleopatra and Herod is a version, which is showing the relation of the two afterwards in a completely different light than it was. Herod hoped this way to secure his royal dominion also under the regime of Octavian. What still worked...

I can scan the two pages and send you by e-mail if you want, but they are in German. Just send an PM over the forum with your e-mail address.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Va Phenix
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's really nice of you Lutz, unfortunately I don't speak German. I see my single language ability as a liability sometimes because if I could speak Greek, I may be able to pick up on subtleties.

I am curious Lutz, what time frame of AE are you more focused on?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Va Phenix wrote:
... I am curious Lutz, what time frame of AE are you more focused on?

New Kingdom, 18th Dynasty but also Pre- and Earlydynastic. Mythology and religion is my mean interest. The history, buildings and cults in Thebes, Abydos and Iunu (Heliopolis) also.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Rahotep
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cleopatra was only 1/4 Egyptian and i don't consider her True Egyptian, she was a Roman invader who ruined my ancestors culture.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rahotep wrote:
cleopatra was only 1/4 Egyptian and i don't consider her True Egyptian, she was a Roman invader who ruined my ancestors culture.


Actually, Cleopatra's lineage was Macedonian, not Roman. Between the Ptolemaic and the Seleucid kings of Syria (to which the Ptolemies were related), the family line was mainly Macedonian, Syrian, and partially mixed with the native population. Cleopatra's lineage has never been established as being any part Egyptian, though some believe (without much proof, I might add) that she was part-Egyptian through her father (some say, grandfather) possessing an Egyptian concubine, and thus children being produced through this source.

Chris Bennett, who has probably written the most researched study on the Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt, has this to say about Cleopatra VII and her lineage:

However, there is no suggestion in any ancient source that Cleopatra VII was illegitimate. Given the threat she posed to the Augustan regime in Rome, and the narrowness with which it was averted, it seems generally and reasonably agreed that this silence is positive evidence that she was legitimate, since there is every opportunity for her to be labelled a b a s t a r d if she was not the daughter of Cleopatra V, even if she was in fact the child of an officially recognised second queen.

This is especially difficult to understand since Cleopatra VII was born more than 6 months before Cleopatra V was removed from power, so there is every opportunity for her to be labelled a b a s t a rd if she was not the daughter of Cleopatra V, even if she was in fact the child of an officially recognised second queen.


For these reasons, it is now generally accepted that if Cleopatra V died in 69 (for which there is no evidence: she is known only to have been removed as queen), nevertheless this supposes that Cleopatra VII was the daughter of Cleopatra V.

Bennett continues:

Against the theory of a second wife is the fact that there is no mention of one in the Egyptian texts outside the ambiguous statement of BM 886, notably not in the dating formulae. Therefore, even if one supposes that Cleopatra V did die in 69, one must suppose that the second wife, or wives, were of different status to her. Since the evidence suggests that in fact she did not die, it is only a change of status, or function, that need be supposed. Since Ptolemy XII apparently stepped up his Dionysiac cult activities at the same time, perhaps the solution is that she moved into a purely religious role connected with this cult...Thus, Cleopatra V is assumed here to have been the only wife of Ptolemy XII and hence the mother of all his children.

HTH.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rahotep wrote:
cleopatra was only 1/4 Egyptian...

Name and ancestry of her mother are not known. That she was a member from the Egyptian elite is speculation. If this speculation is true then she was 1/2 and not 1/4 Egyptian (at least according to Central European mathematics...).

Rahotep wrote:
... she was a Roman invader who ruined my ancestors culture.

The Ptolemies were Greeks, not Romans. Whether, and if so by whom the Ancient Egyptian culture was ruined is a different matter. To see who is doing this currently today with the material residues you just have to read the reports in the Egyptian newspapers ... Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Lutz
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Rahotep
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Rahotep wrote:
cleopatra was only 1/4 Egyptian...

Name and ancestry of her mother are not known. That she was a member from the Egyptian elite is speculation. If this speculation is true then she was 1/2 and not 1/4 Egyptian (at least according to Central European mathematics...).

Rahotep wrote:
... she was a Roman invader who ruined my ancestors culture.

The Ptolemies were Greeks, not Romans. Whether, and if so by whom the Ancient Egyptian culture was ruined is a different matter. To see who is doing this currently today with the material residues you just have to read the reports in the Egyptian newspapers ... Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Lutz



So you are implying that i don't deserve to be proud in my own culture and that you (European mutt) are only allowed to do so. Byzantines exposed Egyptians to severe torments and prosecuted them for more than 700 years. I see no good from you people whether in ancient or modern history.
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dachief
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rahotep,

I suggest you read the forum rules. Insulting other members is unacceptable, and admin doesn't take kindly to it
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both, your insults and the ridiculous attempt to insinuate statements to me that I never made​​, speak for themselves and need no further comment...

Rahotep wrote:
... I see no good from you people whether in ancient or modern history.

And why are you here?

Lutz
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Rahotep wrote:
... she was a Roman invader who ruined my ancestors culture.
The Ptolemies were Greeks, not Romans. Whether, and if so by whom the Ancient Egyptian culture was ruined is a different matter. To see who is doing this currently today with the material residues you just have to read the reports in the Egyptian newspapers ... Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

Certainly not a complete list, just a few examples : "The state of Egyptian archeological sites and monuments under Morsi’s rule" (by Thoraia Abou Bakr on June 30, 2013 in "Daily News Egypt - Egypt’s Only Daily Independent Newspaper In English").

Lutz
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