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Bodily Son of the Sun

 
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Bodily Son of the Sun Reply with quote

Does anyone happen to know how common this phrase "sA ra n XAt-f, mr=f" or "bodily son of the sun, beloved of him" was? Tutankhamun used it, below, but I can't now recall where else I have seen it. This is a separate issue from just plain "sA ra".

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neseret
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Bodily Son of the Sun Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
Does anyone happen to know how common this phrase "sA ra n XAt-f, mr=f" or "bodily son of the sun, beloved of him" was? Tutankhamun used it, below, but I can't now recall where else I have seen it. This is a separate issue from just plain "sA ra".



Baude in the late 1990's, as well as Ward and Troy in the late 1980's, proposed that a title of a royal child that ended with /n XAt-f mr=f/,"of the [king's] own body, beloved/chosen by him" was a means of providing hierarchy amongst the royal children, such that a son or daughter with such a title was likely the eldest child of the lot, and took precedence among any other royal children.

However, this was not to mean that such a son, for example, was always the heir-prince, according to Ward, who cited a number of examples where sons with the /n XAt-f mr=f/ was not always the suceeding king.

References:

Baud, M. 1999. Famille royale et pouvir sous l'Ancien Empire égyptien. (2 Vols.) Bibliothèque d'Étude 126. Cairo: IFAO.

Troy, L. 1986. Patterns of Queenship: in ancient Egyptian myth and history. BOREAS 14. Uppsala: ACTA Universitatis Upsaliensis

Ward, W. A. 1986. Essays on Feminine Titles of the Middle Kingdom and Related Subjects. Beirut: American University of Beirut.

HTH.
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Katherine Griffis-Greenberg

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Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
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Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom

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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Bodily Son of the Sun Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
Baude in the late 1990's, as well as Ward and Troy in the late 1980's, proposed that a title of a royal child that ended with /n XAt-f mr=f/,"of the [king's] own body, beloved/chosen by him" was a means of providing hierarchy amongst the royal children, such that a son or daughter with such a title was likely the eldest child of the lot, and took precedence among any other royal children.


You are clearly referring to the phrase "sA nsw n XAt=f mr=f" [of the king's own body] but that is not on the image I provided. What is there is "sA ra n XAt=f mr=f" and my question was about that--the claim to being the actual bodily son of the sun.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even just another German Egyptologist... Cool

Rainer Hannig : Ägyptisches Wörterbuch / 2 - Mittleres Reich und Zweite Zwischenzeit. - [Hannig-Lexica 5 - Kulturgeschichte der Antiken Welt 112]. - Mainz : von Zabern, 2006. - ISBN : 3-8053-3690-X ; 978-3-8053-3690-1. - LI, pp. 1 - 1616 (Vol. 1) ; pp. 1617 - 3274 (Vol. 2)

from page 2069 the supporting documents for the Middle Kingdom:

[img]http://www.aegyptologie.com/forum/attachments/archiv/Members/Lutz/Dok_2/sA_ra_n_XAt=f_Hannig_5_2006_2069.jpg[/img]

and from page 1971 from the Second Intermedate Period:

[img]http://www.aegyptologie.com/forum/attachments/archiv/Members/Lutz/Dok_2/sA_ra_n_XAt=f_Hannig_5_2006_1971.jpg[/img]

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Page 2069 the supporting documents for the Middle Kingdom

Page 1971 for the Second Intermedate Period

Greetings, Lutz.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Lutz. That's quite a lot!
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
... That's quite a lot!

And those are just the one from the Middle Kingdom.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wondered why everyone transliterates the word for "bodily" as "XAt.f" instead of "Xt.f"?
The belly-sign F 32 is only a one-lit. sign denoting X or (as per Allen`s) ideogram in the word Xt.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
... The belly-sign F 32 is only a one-lit. sign denoting X or (as per Allen`s) ideogram in the word Xt.

As you still say, the "udder and tail" sign (F32) is not only phonogram, it is also an ideogram. And I would say as such it is used herein that?

Greetings, Lutz.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
I wondered why everyone transliterates the word for "bodily" as "XAt.f" instead of "Xt.f"?
The belly-sign F 32 is only a one-lit. sign denoting X or (as per Allen`s) ideogram in the word Xt.


I think you're right. I think it's only M12 that's syllabic XA. My mistake.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Sothis wrote:
... The belly-sign F 32 is only a one-lit. sign denoting X or (as per Allen`s) ideogram in the word Xt.

As you still say, the "udder and tail" sign (F32) is not only phonogram, it is also an ideogram. And I would say as such it is used herein that?

Greetings, Lutz.


I am not sure if the following phonetic t-sign would allow for the interpretation as ideogram.
I was just curious because sometimes certain signs are read differently e.g. wsjr (Osiris) is now read by some Asjr.

But apparently F32 still has the phonetic value X.


Thanks anyway
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Sothis wrote:
... The belly-sign F 32 is only a one-lit. sign denoting X or (as per Allen`s) ideogram in the word Xt.

As you still say, the "udder and tail" sign (F32) is not only phonogram, it is also an ideogram. And I would say as such it is used herein that?

Greetings, Lutz.


I am not sure if the following phonetic t-sign would allow for the interpretation as ideogram.
I was just curious because sometimes certain signs are read differently e.g. wsjr (Osiris) is now read by some Asjr.

But apparently F32 still has the phonetic value X.


Thanks anyway
Smile
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Sothis wrote:
... The belly-sign F 32 is only a one-lit. sign denoting X or (as per Allen`s) ideogram in the word Xt.

As you still say, the "udder and tail" sign (F32) is not only phonogram, it is also an ideogram. And I would say as such it is used herein that?

I am not sure if the following phonetic t-sign would allow for the interpretation as ideogram. ...

It is a phonetic complement, not mandatory but quite common. A well / better - known example you see in the name of the god Amun (waterline, "n", at the end).

Look at the picture in the first post in this thread with the titulary of Tutanchamun. You can see a small line to the left of the "t" sign, under the "udder and tail" sign (F32). This stroke - sign identifies the F32 - sign in the text for the reader as ideogram.

Sothis wrote:
... I was just curious because sometimes certain signs are read differently e.g. wsjr (Osiris) is now read by some Asjr. ...

I would not attach too much importance on that. As we know, it is not really known how the words sounded. The reason is probably simply different schools of thought of different scientists.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgotten ... see for that

Mark Collier / Bill Manley : How to read Egyptian hieroglyphs - A step-by-step guide to teach yourself. - London : British Museum Press, 2008. - ISBN : 978-0-7141-1910-6. - ix, 179 p.,

page 17 - 18, "§13 Ideograms: sound-meaning signs".

Greetings, Lutz.
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