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Ankhesenamun and Akhenaten?
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:51 am    Post subject: Ankhesenamun and Akhenaten? Reply with quote

Is it probable that Ankhesenamun bore a child to her father Akhenaten? If so, would she have had a choice in this? because she would have been very young!
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:08 am    Post subject: Anchesenpašton tashjerit Reply with quote

There is the mention of Anchesenpašten the younger (tashjerit) in one relief. I don't know if there are any other references to her. There are several theories about who this girl (and Meritaten the younger) could be.

Theory 1:
Achnaten married his daughters like his father had done and the girls had children (either with their father or a lover of their choice)

Theory 2:
the original inscription was about secondary wife Kiya and she had a daughter. When the inscriptions were rededicated to Meritaten and Anchesenpašten the daughter was given a tasherit name and only represents a potential future daughter.

Theory 3:
Anchesenpašten the younger was the result of Anchesenpašten's marriage to Smenchkare. Not only Meritaten is assumed to have been married to the enigmatic successor or co-ruler of Achnaten but also Anchesenamun would have been married to him.

Theory 4:
Both tashjerit princesses are daughters of Meritaten and Smenchkare and are named for their mother and aunt.

Theory 5:
Both tashjerit princesses are the daughters of Achnaten with one or more of his lesser wives (Kiya?).

Im not inclined to believe that Achnaten married his young third daughter and conceived a child with her. Simply because that would mean she'd be a lot older than Tut. If Tut succeeded at the age of 9 and there are three years between his succession and the death of Achnaten that would mean Tut was 6 when that Pharaoh died. If Anchesenamun had allready given birth to a daughter during her father's reign she must have been in her early teens when her father died. Three years added to that would make her in her late teens to marry a 9 year old boy. With younger sisters as well as Meritaten tashjerit and Anchespašten tashjerit around she seems an unlikely choice as Great Royal Wife for Tut.

It could be that the tashjerit girls never existed or Anchesenpašten was not the mother of her namesake. If she was than the potential of her daughter and not her becoming Tut's GRW grows.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Anchesenpašton tashjerit Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
Im not inclined to believe that Achnaten married his young third daughter and conceived a child with her. Simply because that would mean she'd be a lot older than Tut. If Tut succeeded at the age of 9 and there are three years between his succession and the death of Achnaten that would mean Tut was 6 when that Pharaoh died. If Anchesenamun had allready given birth to a daughter during her father's reign she must have been in her early teens when her father died. Three years added to that would make her in her late teens to marry a 9 year old boy. With younger sisters as well as Meritaten tashjerit and Anchespašten tashjerit around she seems an unlikely choice as Great Royal Wife for Tut.


However, that was about the same difference in ages between Cleopatra VII and her brother/hisband, Ptolemy. So it's possible. Cleopatra, of course, wanted to be rid of her young husband and, in due course, managed to do it.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We only know these "Tascherits" from clearly altered, damaged and reconstructed textfragments from the end of the Amarna-Period (Green, 1988 & 1999). Source for the theory that they were real persons is as far as I know Donald Redford : Akhenaten - The Heretic King. - Princeton : Univ.Press, 1984. - p. 193, without giving his evidences.

So, in my view

"Theory 2: The original inscription was about secondary wife Kiya and she had a daughter. When the inscriptions were rededicated to Meritaten and Anchesenpašten the daughter was given a tasherit name and only represents a potential future daughter. ..."

is the most reasonable. Especially since there are other examples for the erasure of the name of Kiya.

Greetings, Lutz.

Lynda Green : Queens and Princesses of the Amarna Period (1988, pp. 507 & 532)
Allen / Arnold / Green : The Royal Women of Amarna - Images of Beauty from Ancient Egypt (1999, p. 14)
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Ancient Egyptians must have had some knowledge regarding incest, as in daughter being out of limits, some respct there? I know Ramsess II married a couple of his daughters and had a child with one, but seriously would they have had no concept of that?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russell Middleton : Brother-Sister and Father-Daughter Marriage in Ancient Egypt. - In: American Sociological Review 27-5. - 1962. - pp. 603-611, on page 604 & 605 :
Quote:
"... Documented cases of father-daughter marriage among the Egyptian kings are less numerous and more controversial. De Rouge first called attention to evidence that Rameses II married not only two of his sisters, but also at least two of his daughters. Erman, in a footnote in "Aegypten und Aegyptisches Leben im Altertum" published in 1885, denied this, arguing that the title of "Royal Wife," ascribed to the daughters was of mere ceremonial significance and was bestowed upon royal princesses even in infancy. More recent scholarship, however, has demonstrated that Erman was mistaken, and Ranke rightly omitted the footnote in his revision of the work. Many authorities believe that Rameses II was married to three of his daughters: Banutanta, Merytamen, and Nebttaui. There is some doubt about Nebttaui, for she apparently had a daughter, Astemakh, who was not a child of the king.
Petrie suggests that she may have been married to a subject after the death of the king - though this is not likely, since she would have been over forty at the time - or Astemakh may have been the daughter not of Nebttaui but of princess Nebta, daughter of Amenhotep.

A second example of father-daughter marriage that is generally accepted by most Egyptologists involves Amenhotep III (1397-1360 B.C.), who was probably married to his daughter Satamon and possibly to another daughter as well.

Three alleged cases of father-daughter marriage which were accepted earlier, however, have now generally been discarded. Brunner concluded from a fragmentary inscription that Amenhotep IV or Akhenaton (1370-1353 B.C.) was married to his daughter Ankes-en-pa-Aton and had a daughter by her who bore the same name as her mother. Most scholars regard his interpretation as highly subjective, for the inscription nowhere says that Ankes-en-pa-Aton was married to her father.

Wiedemann had stated that Psamtik I of the 26th Dynasty (663-609 B.C.) married his daughter Nitocris, but Breasted has published texts which show that this was not the case.

Sethe argued on the basis of an inscription found above the false door of a tomb that Snefru of the 4th Dynasty (2614-2591 B.C.) was married to his eldest daughter, Nefertkauw and that they had a son named Nefermaat. The Harvard-Boston Expedition in 1926, however, found another inscription which Reisner maintains clears up ambiguities in the earlier text and shows that Nefermaat was the grandson rather than the son of Snefru. This interpretation is now accepted by most Egyptologists,
though some remain unconvinced. ..."

Greetings, Lutz.
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject: father daughter marriages Reply with quote

Im not certain that if a king married his own daughters the marriage was actually consumated. I think it is possible the marriage was a way of elevating a particular princess to a higher standing at court or making it possible for her to perform certain (religious) rituals. The fact that only one of the princesses who married their father is known to have had a daughter who herself isn't listed as a king's daughter may suggest that the princesses were either remaining celebate or had the freedom to select a lover of their own choice once married to their father. Of course Ramsess II's daughter could have been married previously (to one of her [half]brothers) and given birth to her daughter from that marriage. After becoming widowed the king may have elevated her rank by marrying her himself.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We cannot however assume that the AEs would find Father-Daughter incest as shocking as we do. Ramesses' daughters seem to have been promoted to replace their mothers, Amenhotep III's apparent 'marriage' to each of his daughters in turn while Tiye continued to function as his true Great Wife does imply an honorary rank. Several 12th dynasty princesses buried in their father's complexes hold styles usually granted to consorts but NOT that of 'King's Wife. The carefully prepared tombs and gorgeous jewels discovered therein suggest that 12th dynasty kings valued their womenfolk highly. Possibly the titles are nothing more than another sign of special favor.

However that may be there doesn't seem to be any good reason to assume that Akhenaten was married to any of his daughters. 'Mayati', presumably Merytaten, is described as 'the mistress of his house' but not a wife possibly meaning she was fulfilling the duties of First Lady of Egypt without the title of consort. Even if the tasherit princesses are the daughters of their namesakes it is not necessary to assume that Akhenaten was their father.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: father daughter marriages Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
Im not certain that if a king married his own daughters the marriage was actually consumated. I think it is possible the marriage was a way of elevating a particular princess to a higher standing at court or making it possible for her to perform certain (religious) rituals. The fact that only one of the princesses who married their father is known to have had a daughter who herself isn't listed as a king's daughter may suggest that the princesses were either remaining celebate or had the freedom to select a lover of their own choice once married to their father. Of course Ramsess II's daughter could have been married previously (to one of her [half]brothers) and given birth to her daughter from that marriage. After becoming widowed the king may have elevated her rank by marrying her himself.


Did the ancient Egyptians consummate their marriage? This sounds like something of the Tudor decade...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: father daughter marriages Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
Did the ancient Egyptians consummate their marriage?...

I guess ... now and then ... 5000 years of history would otherwise difficult to explain.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: father daughter marriages Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
Did the ancient Egyptians consummate their marriage?...

I guess ... now and then ... 5000 years of history would otherwise difficult to explain.

Greetings, Lutz.


Must you always be patronising? Some people come here (with little knowledge) to learn, not to be patronised, must be a hard concept for you to comprehend.

I made the connection between consummation and the Tudor age, because generally they consummated marriage somewhat immediately after marriage, from what I gather... however the question is old and I am no longer interested.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That you (despite the smilie) obviously can not distinguish between joke and paternalism (?!?!) I'm sorry ... For you.

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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps it's the language barrier... Whereas you can not tell a joke without it sounding patronising, therefore you cannot distinguish one from the other ... In that case, you should only feel sorry for yourself...

My statement is not independently in regard to one comment who had made above, but the numerous I have encountered that you have made... However it must be that language barrier, where you cannot differentiate from kindness and rudeness... Rolling Eyes Silly me...
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one is obliged to read my posts...

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
Perhaps it's the language barrier... Whereas you can not tell a joke without it sounding patronising, therefore you cannot distinguish one from the other ... In that case, you should only feel sorry for yourself...

My statement is not independently in regard to one comment who had made above, but the numerous I have encountered that you have made... However it must be that language barrier, where you cannot differentiate from kindness and rudeness... Rolling Eyes Silly me...


May I point out that you seem to take offense where none is offered nor even implied, and this seems to occur on a repeating basis.

Regardless of the fact that Lutz is German, I have seen you act "upset" over comments from English-speaking posters as well. I would suggest, as a matter of course, you get a little less thin-skinned, and assume - even if it seems "offensive" to you - that no one is out to offend you (no one here actually knows you in most cases).

If you can adopt that attitude, you would a) be far happier, and b) no one would have to see these comments about how offensive/patronising/etc. you seem to find others' comments. It serves no purpose but to make yourself look foolish in many cases.

The Internet is textual: unless someone actually makes it clear they are arguing at you or some such, you should assume that the messages are meant as informative, good-natured ribbing, or at worse, a language barrier between two people, and leave it at that.
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