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Statue Identification.
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Which Amarna Princess is depicted?
Meritaten
75%
 75%  [ 3 ]
Meketaten
25%
 25%  [ 1 ]
Ankhesenpaaten/Ankhesenamun
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 4

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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very similar, I suspect from this either

1) there one of the same person? (which I personally doubt)

or

2) that this is indicative, that Ay (Aja) could possibly be Neferteti's father!
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
Very similar, I suspect from this either

1) there one of the same person? (which I personally doubt)...

The identification of the plaster mask as a picture of a man is secured by the red color remains. The unfinished head as a picture of Nefertiti as well, as far as possible in this case...

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
... 2) that this is indicative, that Ay (Aja) could possibly be Neferteti's father!

At least a very close relative, father or maybe an uncle? The shape of the cheekbones and the area around the nose looks very similar to me.

Greetings, Lutz.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
Very similar, I suspect from this either

1) there one of the same person? (which I personally doubt)...

The identification of the plaster mask as a picture of a man is secured by the red color remains. The unfinished head as a picture of Nefertiti as well, as far as possible in this case...

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
... 2) that this is indicative, that Ay (Aja) could possibly be Neferteti's father!

At least a very close relative, father or maybe an uncle? The shape of the cheekbones and the area around the nose looks very similar to me.


Yet, when you look at the image below (also identified as Ay, as king (due to the vestige of a diadem at the forehead)), the identifiable cheekbones are much lower and the nose seems to look quite different:


(This is from Anneke Bart's website: thanks for such a good image, Anneke)

So, perhaps the Berlin image is of a relative of Nefertiti, but then again, not Ay.

Just a thought.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about attributing the plaster mask to Aye ( because I guess that only VIP`s who played an important role then were entitled to being portrayed) and the other head in neseret`s picture to another king? I have Horemheb in my mind who would also have been of more mature age when he became king.

BTW I find the plaster mask which is o the far bottom left in Lutz`s picture quite intriguing. It also depicts a male of probably advanced age but bears no resemblance to the other representations. Who could this be?
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Robson
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, when we see various depictions from Akhenaten, Nefertiti and Tiye, where they look so not "like themselves"...
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sothis wrote:
What about attributing the plaster mask to Aye ( because I guess that only VIP`s who played an important role then were entitled to being portrayed) and the other head in neseret`s picture to another king? ...

This is exactly the problem I have with these "look a like contests" and so I usually consider myself back ... Cairo JE 37930 (origin unknown, limestone, height 10 cm), identified as Aja (the picture Neseret posted), probably originally represented a non-royal person. Uraeus and crown band were added by processing / revision later. If I remember correctly, this is probably the main argument for an assignment to Aja.
It may be very subjective, but personally I see a certain similarity between the head (Cairo, JE 37930) and the Berlin mask (Berlin, ÄMP 21350) and also to face features of Nefertiti on different statues:



And also Queen Teje comes to my mind (the head made of wood in Berlin):



Here are two other heads, also attributed to Aja...:


(München, ÄS 6296. 1980 from the French art market. The body was identified with Cairo, JE 46600. A seated figure flanked by two standing female figures in the costume of the late 18th Dynasty.)


(On the left, part of a double statue of King Aja and his Great Royal Wife Teje, if I remember right in St.Petersburg and with inscription.)

Greetings, Lutz.
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What about attributing the plaster mask to Aye ( because I guess that only VIP`s who played an important role then were entitled to being portrayed)


If these plaster masks were in fact part of an Art study, then I presume they do not necessarily need to be depictions of royalty.

I do prefer the assumption that the first plaster mask is that of Ay and that the second one to be posted by Neseret, is that of someone else, whom is part of the Amarna royal family.

Though looking back at what Lutz posted, the second image, does seem to correlate with the other attributed Ay's, well one of them at least.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
Sothis wrote:
What about attributing the plaster mask to Aye ( because I guess that only VIP`s who played an important role then were entitled to being portrayed)

If these plaster masks were in fact part of an Art study, then I presume they do not necessarily need to be depictions of royalty. ...

This Sothis did not say. She speaks of VIP`s, not royals. Aja was at that time also not a royal, not a member of the royal family. If anything, he was a relative of a member at most.

Aside from "artist study" is a conjecture of mine and has to be justified rather emotionally (and was more in the sense of student work meant), I do not think people as models in question were completely insignificant. Sothis here has certainly right. We should not transfer our concept and idea of art from today to the Ancient Egyptians. This is not possible and for sure wrong.

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
... I do prefer the assumption that the first plaster mask is that of Ay and that the second one to be posted by Neseret, is that of someone else, whom is part of the Amarna royal family. ...

The head from Cairo Museum (post Neseret) is not a mask. And with look that this object was reworked and reduced in volume to carve the ureaus I still see no reason to assume that they were two different people (mask Berlin, head Cairo). The facial features are similar, in my view, differences can be explained by the reworking and reduction of the object and the different age of the person at the time of production.

In this context is an article interesting...

Earl L. Ertman : Some Probable Representations of Ay. - In: GM 51. - 1981. - pp. 51 - 55. Ertman differs in the known / suspected Aja portraits between two different styles: the earlier, the naturalistic one influenced by Amarna, and a second, "conservative idealized" style, starting with his high position when Tutanchamun becomes king.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of which you have said Lutz, is true and makes logical sense, so I see no further reason to persist on. However from this, I have come to the conclusion that Neferteti and Ay were closely related one way or another.

Thank you Lutz, of which is very interesting.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Lutz, for making my point clear.
There are certainly a few representations among the masks which could hardly be attributed to members of the royal family, such as the one on the bottom left and the two at the top left in Lutz`s picture.

They may well be high officials, maybe handpicked by Akhenaten.

But seeing how difficult it is to connect representations to the well-known royals or their relatives it is probably futile to start a discussion on them....

Anyway, these "masks" make fascinating and out of the ordinary stuff.
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Sothis
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Lutz, for making my point clear.
There are certainly a few representations among the masks which could hardly be attributed to members of the royal family, such as the one on the bottom left and the two at the top left in Lutz`s picture.

They may well be high officials, maybe handpicked by Akhenaten.

But seeing how difficult it is to connect representations to the well-known royals or their relatives it is probably futile to start a discussion on them....

Anyway, these "masks" make fascinating and out of the ordinary stuff.
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