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Manetho's 13 years of Amarna anarchy
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Riaan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:35 pm    Post subject: Manetho's 13 years of Amarna anarchy Reply with quote

Dear all,

In my book Thera and the Exodus I endeavour to prove that Manetho's account of anarchy during the Amarna era is accurate. In essence, Manetho claims that the Pharaoh of the Exodus was Amenhotep III and that he had to face a rebellion by plague infected Egyptians and slaves, as well as an army of Asiatics from the north. Amenhotep and his army retreated to Ethiopia and remained there for 13 years, during which Moses, who can be identified as Amenhotep's firstborn son Crown Prince Tuthmosis, looted Egypt of its treasures and effectively isolated Akhetaten from the outside world.

I have written a couple of articles based on this theory - please let me know what you find wrong with the reasoning if you do not agree with my conclusions.

The El Arish Shrine in Context

Nefertiti and the Queen of Sheba

The Identification of Moses as Crown Prince Tuthmosis

Proving That Thera Had Erupted Twice ...
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sleepy3 The same as the first time when you came here with your nonsense: puke

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:34 am    Post subject: Re: Manetho's 13 years of Amarna anarchy Reply with quote

Riaan wrote:
Dear all,



I have written a couple of articles based on this theory - please let me know what you find wrong with the reasoning if you do not agree with my conclusions.





There is so much wrong, I'm not even sure where to begin.

You sort of half-heartedly dismiss Velikovsky, but you've pretty much done the same kinds of things that got him wandering off into the twilight zone, by partial quotes, incomplete reference out of context, and assorted gaffes.

Your linkage of Moses, whomever he may have been, if he existed at all, with the El Arish shrine is one example. You posit they are linked because of Moses coming down from Mount Sinai with horns, and the fact the shrine mentions a god/king with horns. If that correspondence is valid, shouldn't Moses have come down the mountain part crocodile, as it says on the shrine, if you refer to the part you seem to? And instead of ascending and then descending a mountain, shouldn't have Moses gone down into a whirlpool, as the shrine describes?

In another of your articles, you state that Apis had his origin in the reign of Amenhotep III. Did you do any research on that point? If so, did the Old Kingdom references to him somehow escape you?

Did you consult any maps? You state that Amenhotep III's palace at Malkata is orientated toward the East. It isn't. While the entire complex certainly has an eastern side, toward the Nile, the king's palace, itself, is orientated North-South, with the entrance and public rooms being at the northern end, and the rooms growing more private until they reach the king's private quarters on the southern end. The actual main entrance is at the NW corner of the building, more or less.

There is so much more, and so much of it simply wrong or mistaken that, as I before said, it's impossible to know where to begin, and almost meaningless to continue. We'd be here until the cows came home on the last day before the Sun, in its red dwarf stage, burns off Earth's atmosphere.
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Meretseger
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moses did not have horns, that was a mistranslation of a phrase that should have been interpreted as shining with light (ie: his face reflected the glory of the Lord).
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meretseger wrote:
Moses did not have horns, that was a mistranslation of a phrase that should have been interpreted as shining with light (ie: his face reflected the glory of the Lord).


Don't feel bad. Michelangelo made the same mistake. Couldlve avoided it too if he'd just consulted a Rabbi or someone fluent in Hebrew.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That there is some connection between an eruption of the Theran volcano and an exodus from Egypt can neither be proved nor disproved. However, on balance, the tale of Manetho about "King Amenophis" and the 13 years is not about a pharaoh named Amenhotep. Jospehus, who transmits the story, recognized one truth immediately and that was that Manetho was recounting folklore. Josephus: “It is now, therefore, sufficiently obvious, I think, that, so long as Manetho followed the ancient records, he did not stray far from the truth; but when he turned to unwritten legends, he either combined them in an implausible form or else gave credence to certain prejudiced informants.”

In fact, Manetho was perfectly capable of recognizing the difference between the names "Amenhotep" and "Merneptah" if he saw them in cartouches, but not from folklore, where the distinction had been lost due to a similarity in pronunciation. [Yes, really.] It is obvious that Merneptah
even got on Manetho's version of the 18th Dynasty [as did some others of the 19th] as "Amenophis". It would seem, too, that Manetho thought there were 393 years between "Tethmosis", the first king of his 18th Dynasty and a "Sethos", who was likely Setnakht but who probably got confused with kings named Seti, too. My opinion is that the 13 years are the time that lapsed between the start of the kingship of the usurper, Amenmessu, and the advent of Setnakht who, on his Elephantine Stela, did claim to drive out the Asiatics. [the reign of Seti II, a legitimate ruler, was not counted]

I take this from the Great Harris Papyrus, which talks about "empty years", which might even mean years that are no longer even recognized officially, that is to say "void". At that time a man called "Irisu", [self-made] called a Levantine, made himself lord and controlled the entire land of Egypt. This may even have been a deliberate miswriting of "Amenmessu" or "Amen created him". Not much at all is known about this king, who he was. Or this may have been a reference to the Chancellor Bay. During this period of chaos, the gods were treated no differently than the people and did not receive their offerings. Things were destroyed and there was plundering. The situation was not righted until the advent of Setnakht, who took some strong measures to bring about peace in Egypt and gave the gods their due once more. It is mentioned that "he cleansed the great throne of Egypt". The not-so-subtle message is that the land was under the hand of a foreign element prior to Setnakht, but he caused them to be chased back to Asia.
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Riaan
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
That there is some connection between an eruption of the Theran volcano and an exodus from Egypt can neither be proved nor disproved. However, on balance, the tale of Manetho about "King Amenophis" and the 13 years is not about a pharaoh named Amenhotep. Jospehus, who transmits the story, recognized one truth immediately and that was that Manetho was recounting folklore. Josephus: “It is now, therefore, sufficiently obvious, I think, that, so long as Manetho followed the ancient records, he did not stray far from the truth; but when he turned to unwritten legends, he either combined them in an implausible form or else gave credence to certain prejudiced informants.”


One has to consider both possibilities, namely that Manetho was right or that he was wrong. Manetho unequivocally states that the Pharaoh of the Exodus was Amenhotep who had a scribe called Amenhotep - that identifies this Pharaoh as Amenhotep III. In my book I present a vast amount of evidence which suggests that Manetho was right, including evidence of a prolonged stay of Amenhotep III in Ethiopia (Manetho's 13 years). The evidence includes the El Arish text, in which King Shu can be identified as Amenhotep III and his son Geb (Osarsiph, Moses) as Prince Tuthmosis, the vanished heir to Amenhotep's throne.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riaan wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
That there is some connection between an eruption of the Theran volcano and an exodus from Egypt can neither be proved nor disproved. However, on balance, the tale of Manetho about "King Amenophis" and the 13 years is not about a pharaoh named Amenhotep. Jospehus, who transmits the story, recognized one truth immediately and that was that Manetho was recounting folklore. Josephus: “It is now, therefore, sufficiently obvious, I think, that, so long as Manetho followed the ancient records, he did not stray far from the truth; but when he turned to unwritten legends, he either combined them in an implausible form or else gave credence to certain prejudiced informants.”


One has to consider both possibilities, namely that Manetho was right or that he was wrong. Manetho unequivocally states that the Pharaoh of the Exodus was Amenhotep who had a scribe called Amenhotep - that identifies this Pharaoh as Amenhotep III. In my book I present a vast amount of evidence which suggests that Manetho was right, including evidence of a prolonged stay of Amenhotep III in Ethiopia (Manetho's 13 years). The evidence includes the El Arish text, in which King Shu can be identified as Amenhotep III and his son Geb (Osarsiph, Moses) as Prince Tuthmosis, the vanished heir to Amenhotep's throne.


Manetho certainly does not state that the Pharaoh of the Exodus was an Amenhotep because, in his 18th Dynasty, he appends kings from the 19th and calls a ruler who is obviously Merneptah, "Amenophis". Also, this particular "Amenophis" in the "Tale of the Polluted Ones", even if he appears to have an advisor who is probably Amenhotep son of Hapu, also has a son whose name incorporates that of the god, Set. This can't pertain to any king called Amenhotep. Josephus was the one who was right and the key word is "combined". Perhaps there is more than one legend involved. The El Arish text is no proof of anything, I'm afraid. Egyptologist Hans Goedicke offered the theory that the story was about the first Thutmosids and that Geb represented Thutmose III.
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Riaan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, this particular "Amenophis" in the "Tale of the Polluted Ones", even if he appears to have an advisor who is probably Amenhotep son of Hapu, also has a son whose name incorporates that of the god, Set. This can't pertain to any king called Amenhotep.


That there was much confusion about that era is to be expected, as Horemheb and others attempted to wipe the existence of the Amarna era from recorded history. In my opinion the Amenophis - Amenophis link is undeniable. In my book I present much more evidence to prove that Amenhotep III was the Pharaoh of the Exodus.

Quote:
The El Arish text is no proof of anything, I'm afraid. Egyptologist Hans Goedicke offered the theory that the story was about the first Thutmosids and that Geb represented Thutmose III.


In my book, and the extract on the El Arish presented here, I show that the events portrayed in the El Arish Text match those described by Manetho, specifically regarding Geb/Osarsiph (Moses) who sent messengers to Jerusalem, summoning them to him. The text also mentions a staff and a box with magical (supposedly) powers, which must be origin of the Ark of the Covenant story in the Bible. Are all of these merely coincidence?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riaan wrote:
events portrayed in the El Arish Text match those described by Manetho, specifically regarding Geb/Osarsiph (Moses) who sent messengers to Jerusalem, summoning them to him.


jerusalem was a petty town that governed a vassal state during the amarna period. there is no historical mention of jerusalem before the amarna letters, assuming that the general census of this is correct:

Wikipedia wrote:
The Execration Texts (c. 19th century BCE), which refer to a city called rwš3lmm, variously transcribed as Rušalimum/Urušalimum/Rôsh-ramen and the Amarna letters (c. 14th century BCE) may be the earliest mention of the city.


therefore i find it hard to believe any pharaoh prior to the rammessides fits at all. personally i do not believe anything in the bible, at most there is a very minimum basic kernel of truth in the stories. but people don't believe the stories of the pharaohs becoming gods or communicating with them, so i find it hard for people to believe in the bible.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Jerusalem was a petty town that governed a vassal state during the amarna period. there is no historical mention of jerusalem before the amarna letters, assuming that the general census of this is correct


The issue here is not 'Jerusalem', but the very unique incident in which an Egyptian priest (according to Manetho) sent messengers to Jerusalem, inviting them to enter Egypt and join him in his fight against the king. In the El Arish text it is stated that it was Geb, the king's son, who 'sent messengers to summon to him the foreigners and Asiatics from their land’. As in Manetho's case, the Asiatics invaded Egypt.

Jerusalem must, therefore, have existed during the Amarna era. In fact, Manetho records that Jerusalem was founded by the Hyksos who were expelled from Egypt by Ahmose I, who lived ca. 1540 BCE.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:31 pm    Post subject: archeological evidence? Reply with quote

Instead of looking at how to interpret text you could look at archeological evidence. So far Jerusalem is to the best of my knowledge proving a difficult age. Biblical stories do not match the archeological evidence found at the city. So i think that prooves for now that most of the old testament should not be read as historical evidence but as mythology. Maybe not what those who are believers want to read but archeology is a science and science is not about believing but about facts and theories that are based on those facts.
Basic fact is that archeological evidence of Jerusalem does not go back as far as biblical stories suggest. Ergo the stories are not accurate. That can change if the evidence changes, but not any earlier.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riaan wrote:
The issue here is not 'Jerusalem', but the very unique incident in which an Egyptian priest (according to Manetho) sent messengers to Jerusalem, inviting them to enter Egypt and join him in his fight against the king. In the El Arish text it is stated that it was Geb, the king's son, who 'sent messengers to summon to him the foreigners and Asiatics from their land’. As in Manetho's case, the Asiatics invaded Egypt.


point is that jerusalem is not proven to be as old as the amarna letters. the experts think they have identified this town in the amarna letters. if it did exist, it is not an important town, and certainly won't have a population large enough to throw it's weight in rebellion. so the likelihood of finding evidence for your interpretation of the stela is minimal.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
That there is some connection between an eruption of the Theran volcano and an exodus from Egypt can neither be proved nor disproved. ...

It can not be proved that there was an exodus from Egypt at all, as described. There the nonsense starts ... Outside the text from the so called "Five Books of Mose" there is no evidence. There is even no proof that a person like this ever existed.

The Bible was and is a book of believe. It is no history book, and you are doing it and its actual intention no favours to assert this, and against all odds now unsuccessfully for over 300 years, trying to prove archaeologically. How weak is the belief of people when they actually need obviously for historical confirmation and evidence?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I've said before I'd be very surprised - and dubious - if archaeological evidence of the Exodus was claimed. Wandering Beduin don't leave much of a footprint and the AEs certainly weren't going to memorialize a bunch of 'wretched Asiatics'. And I am skeptical of the historical reality of the ten plagues so I feel no need to explain them scientifically. I'm agnostic on the parting of the Red Sea too.
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