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Has anyone ever looked into this?
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamregent wrote:
... Well, you yourself said at the very beginning:

Lutz wrote:
That the structure could be a meteorite-crater is very likely.


Now, make no mistake, I do understand this is all predicated on scientific confirmation. However, it's not like I don't have some kind of basis to go on. I think you know that.

"Coul be likely" is not prooven... These Google Earth pictures can deceiving. As long as no excavation took place on the spot, it can be also something else...

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamregent wrote:
... It's essentially a hole in the ground with semi-circular cliffs surrounding it.

It is the bed of the Nile. He has cut in the course of centuries the valley out of the rock. The Nile also often changed its exact course (we know for example also from Karnak). Your "crater" is probably not on the former site of Achetaten, but next to it in the mountains... And can also be a site created by humans.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
"Coul be likely" is not prooven... These Google Earth pictures can deceiving. As long as no excavation took place on the spot, it can be also something else...


Again, I completely agree with you on that. As for satellite photos, there are times when they aren't clear. However, the image of this particular feature is very clear and there is no doubt that this is a hole with a raised berm around it...based on the visible water action on the interior and the exterior, as well as the dark rocks lying on top of the rim and what appears to be sand gathered to the center in the bottom. There are only so many ways a structure like this could be created. For Example A, we also need to consider the dark rocks lying on top of the berm surrounding the hole. They appear to be bits and pieces left over from the erosion of dark patches of rock on the plateau. Apparently, they are moved around by wind & water action.

Here is a photo showing the same type of rocks scattered across a patch of desert nearby:



We can make some inferences based on the presence of the rocks on the berm. Basically, the rocks either had to be present in the area when the berm was created (or pushed up) and then the other rocks nearby were later washed away OR these rocks were purposely brought to the berm and placed on top of it by man. Those are the only two rational possibilities that I can think of.

So, lets go through a list of possible ways this structure could be created and weigh their pros & cons -->

  • Modern Excavation -- This is like precluded for the following reasons: If it was created with earth-moving equipment, the earth composing the berm would have been pushed over on top of the dark rocks if they were present. Also, it doesn't make any sense that modern people would create the hole and the berm, then go get some dark rocks to lay on top of the berm so it looks pretty in satellite photos. Also, this would have been a huge earth-moving project due to the size. It is unlikely that, due to its size and location, that the Amarna Project would be unaware of it. Likewise, if the Amarna Project dug this out, I'd think that Barry Kemp would have been aware of it.
  • Quarry -- I checked a couple of sources on this, which were negative. Also, if it was a quarry, you'd think Barry Kemp would have said, "oh yeah, I recognize that great big bowl-shaped depression as one of the quarries up there" when I showed him the photos and pointed out its location.
  • Wind & Water Erosion -- This feature is in the middle of a flat plateau and it's very difficult to see how surface wind & water could possibly excavate a perfectly concentric bowl with a diameter of 1 2/3 American football fields AND build up a concentric berm around the edge of it all at the same time.
  • Volcanic Vent/Caldera -- There is simply no indication of volcanic activity in this area during the recent geologic past.
  • Other Geologic Process -- I am unable to think of anything else that could account for both the depression and the raised berm around it. A sinkhole would not create a raised berm. If you know of another geological possibility, make the suggestion and let's check it out. I'm all for doing this.
  • Ancient Excavation -- Meaning that the Egyptians created it themselves and placed the dark stones around the rim. However, there is no record of them doing anything else like this that I am aware of. Also, we're not dealing with sand here. It may have sand drifting around on top of it but this plateau is an eocene sedimentary rock formation. The bowl has been excavated out of it and the berm placed on top of it.
  • Meteorite Impact -- This is the only other logical option I can think of. For me, none of the other choices really make any sense.


Please, I'm not trying to give people a hard time or act like some kind of buffoon over this. I am being completely serious and I am only interested in the truth of the matter here...or as close to the truth as we can get. Like everyone else here, I am very interested in the history of this area and I am not looking to promote a personal agenda. I appreciate the efforts of anyone who wants to help get at this. If you see a different possibility or disagree with this analysis for some reason, by all means, speak up.
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dreamregent
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
dreamregent wrote:
... It's essentially a hole in the ground with semi-circular cliffs surrounding it.

It is the bed of the Nile. He has cut in the course of centuries the valley out of the rock. The Nile also often changed its exact course (we know for example also from Karnak). Your "crater" is probably not on the former site of Achetaten, but next to it in the mountains... And can also be a site created by humans.

Lutz


But, this wasn't the bed of the Nile during the Amarna period...it was farther to the west but it's exact path has not been figured out, yet. That coring project I referenced concluded this...
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamregent wrote:
But, this wasn't the bed of the Nile during the Amarna period...

I did not say that. It was at some point in the history of the world... The Nile has created the Upper Egyptian valley. Wind and erosion did the rest. I do not see the slightest hint of a meteorite impact on the former city area.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
dreamregent wrote:
But, this wasn't the bed of the Nile during the Amarna period...

I did not say that. It was at some point in the history of the world... The Nile has created the Upper Egyptian valley. Wind and erosion did the rest. I do not see the slightest hint of a meteorite impact on the former city area.

Lutz


Well, as I hope came through my prior posts, I am not convinced either...based on researching the geology of the area. However, I wouldn't quite preclude the possibility...also because of research into the nearby geology. In any case, if the Amarna plain was formed by an impact event, it would have been far in the past and I am not suggesting that the formation of the Amarna plain was made by the potential event I am associating with the Amarna period. As for the boundary stelae, I was talking about how the landscape may have been perceived by Akhnaten after seeing the evidence of a contemporary impact event.

However, the cliffs surrounding the Amarna plain are very much like the presentation of an impact crater (or a pair of them), except they are heavily eroded. At the time of Amarna, I believe the geography may have looked even more rounded on the western side. Clearly, the results of the coring project showed that the Nile & its flood plain did not reach the city of Amarna until the late Roman period. From that, there's no question that the path of the Nile was further to the west during the Amarna period. It's just a question of how far west and in what shape. I know that further testing would have to be done to determine that. And I have not prematurely drawn a geologic conclusion on the Amarna Plain because I have not drawn a conclusion at all...I've only pointed out the consistent basis for a possible theory that requires more study. That matter is a completely separate issue from Example A & the Amarna period. Whether the Amarna Plain really is the result of an impact event is a totally separate issue from how the shape of the geography may or may not have been perceived in the Amarna time frame.

I realize that Amarna is a Sacred Cow for many people and nobody wants to see the understanding they have grown to love change in any way. However, everything we know about Amarna has been put together and inferred from bits and pieces found from objects that were smashed to smithereens long ago. I'd wager that there are some things we have misunderstood and there are other things that we will simply never know. But, the only way to learn anything new is to look at what is there, ask questions, develop a theory and then test it. It doesn't really even matter whether the proposed theory is wrong. While testing it, something even more valuable may be discovered.

If someone came on here with a wild theory with no basis or evidence to look at, I'd tell them to take a hike also. However, when I said I thought maybe Akhnaten saw a fireball or meteor that crashed, I have a potential impact crater at Amarna to point at. It is not a wild theory without any basis that I just plucked out of thin air.

People can criticize all they want. However, this is a viable theory where there is evidence that can be tested. If you want to just tear it down because you feel it threatens your infallible understanding of everything, that's fine. However, you aren't doing anybody any favors with that, not even yourself.
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
dreamregent wrote:
But, this wasn't the bed of the Nile during the Amarna period...

I did not say that. It was at some point in the history of the world... The Nile has created the Upper Egyptian valley. Wind and erosion did the rest. I do not see the slightest hint of a meteorite impact on the former city area.


Ah...but you do see potential remains of one south of there, don't you? I finally noticed you very carefully specified "the city area" there. What if that coring project is continued and they find that, during the Amarna period, the river followed a path roughly tracking the western periphery of the upper circle I have drawn? They already found evidence that water passed at the extreme north end of the site. Then, the shape of the plain would look like the number 8 and the Great Temple of Aten would be near the center of the upper circle. Would you then still say you don't see anything that might be interpreted as crater-like and nothing in the shape of the land that might be significant? Don't you think it's worth finding out? Also, that coring project has other uses besides determining the path of the river so it's not like it would be a waste of time.




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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can only repeat, there is in my view in the texts of the Amarna period no evidence of a scenario suspected by you. Texts and landscape together indicate clearly the "3ht" idea, how I could see with my own eyes. I see no reason because of a circular-shaped structure on a Google Earth image in the desert next to the city to discard those facts. I have seen in Egypt still the strangest things, children do a lot when they play and have time...

Dents of the rock massif in the Upper Egyptian Nile Valley that you can complete to circles (if you want) there are certainly many. Akhenaten therefore to suppose natural scientific knowledge we have today is simply silly.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
I can only repeat, there is in my view in the texts of the Amarna period no evidence of a scenario suspected by you.


Yeah, but you know how it is...for the important stuff, they actually drew a picture on the wall. And, hey, at least it naturally looks like my idea without having to do a bunch of studies and write a 50-page paper trying to convince people that it looks like clouds or an eclipse. I can see a number of possible interpretations involving impact craters. Perhaps the meteor craters, stacked upon one another, are held in abeyance waiting to be sent down by the Aten along with his rays if the offerings aren't good enough.
(heh heh, that's a joke! Laughing )

From the tomb of Meryra, Greatest of Seers:


Lutz wrote:
Akhenaten therefore to suppose natural scientific knowledge we have today is simply silly.


And that's the silliest thing I've seen you write. Haven't you been reading my posts. I put a wall of separation between the natural evolution of the Amarna plain and the way the geography may have been interpreted during the Amarna Period. Those are two different issues. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear, yet. I thought mentioning it several times would have done so. Hopefully, I have managed to make myself clear about that at this time. If meteor craters are associated with the Aten, another concept I think I've pretty much implied here even if I didn't spell it out explicitly, why would he need to base his reasoning on anything to do with science?

And, are you the forum bully? Please stop trying to belittle me. The attacks really make you look small, especially as it's clear you think that I am a nobody and my theories mean nothing. It makes me think that you feel threatened by new perspectives on issues where different groups of people hold various accepted theories but the answers have never really been nailed down before.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamregent wrote:
... And, are you the forum bully? Please stop trying to belittle me. The attacks really make you look small, especially as it's clear you think that I am a nobody and my theories mean nothing. It makes me think that you feel threatened by new perspectives on issues where different groups of people hold various accepted theories but the answers have never really been nailed down before.

I express my opinion and justifying this usually. And I certainly will not let me ban that by you... And if I think something is nonsense I call it that way. If you can not handle it that's your problem...

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamregent wrote:
... From the tomb of Meryra, Greatest of Seers:


See for that...

Dennis C. Forbes : A Rare Solar Display - depicted in the Tomb of Meryre I at El Amarna. - In: Amarna Letters - Essays on Ancient Egypt, c. 1390 - 1310 BC 4. - San Francisco : Kmt Communications, Inc., 2000. - pp. 44 - 59.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Lutz wrote:
I can only repeat...
...children do a lot when they play and have time...

Lutz
I express my opinion and justifying this usually. And I certainly will not let me ban that by you... And if I think something is nonsense I call it that way. If you can not handle it that's your problem...

Lutz


Oho! Laughing
One reveals that he perceives his ideas are threatened when he ignores the material debate and resorts to repeating himself while making a decided veer towards "clever" personal belittlement rather than sticking to objective points. If one of us can't handle the heat of debate, I don't think it's me...

Lutz wrote:
See for that...

Dennis C. Forbes : A Rare Solar Display - depicted in the Tomb of Meryre I at El Amarna. - In: Amarna Letters - Essays on Ancient Egypt, c. 1390 - 1310 BC 4. - San Francisco : Kmt Communications, Inc., 2000. - pp. 44 - 59.

Lutz


Yes, I've read that as well. Nice speculation but that's all it is. And I thought you were going to present proof to refute my interpretation. Additionally, that view takes several pages to make the connection where my view is clearly connected and easily understood after 2 or 3 sentences. Based on the absence of definitive proof for any existing theory and the principle of Occam's Razor, I'll claim the win at the present time.

Let me ask you a question though... What is the holiest place in Atenism...aka the place where pilgrims would come to worship; the place where the largest public events, gatherings, festivals and services would be held; the place that would be used to focus the spiritual attention of all the adherents toward Akhnaten and, effectively, the Aten? Catholics have St. Peters Basilica, Jews have the Western Wall and Mormons have the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City (I'm not an adherent of any of them). Which building would be used for equivalent purposes and draw the largest crowds within the religion of Aten?
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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamregent wrote:
... when he ignores the material debate ...

There is no "material" to debate, in my view. Thats the problem. All what I had to say about / to your nonsens I have said...

dreamregent wrote:
Lutz wrote:
See for that...

Dennis C. Forbes : A Rare Solar Display - depicted in the Tomb of Meryre I at El Amarna. - In: Amarna Letters - Essays on Ancient Egypt, c. 1390 - 1310 BC 4. - San Francisco : Kmt Communications, Inc., 2000. - pp. 44 - 59.

Lutz


Yes, I've read that as well. Nice speculation but that's all it is. And I thought you were going to present proof to refute my interpretation. ...

... says Mr. "I-paint-me-a-few-circles-on-my-Google-Earth-picture-and-think-of-to-me-a-funny-story-with-Akhenaten" ?! This one was good, really a screamer ...

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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
There is no "material" to debate, in my view. Thats the problem. All what I had to say about / to your nonsens I have said...

... says Mr. "I-paint-me-a-few-circles-on-my-Google-Earth-picture-and-think-of-to-me-a-funny-story-with-Akhenaten" ?! This one was good, really a screamer ...

Lutz


Now, we have the most desperate attempts at face-saving and further belittlement that I have ever seen here. If you're having a hard time attacking the idea, attack the person, right? Why do you keep up with calling me names? Is that what this conversation has reduced you to? How cute! Bring it on, dude! I've taken much better from meaner guys than you. For one who claims to be so secure in his ideas, this is indicative of a man who is intellectually afraid. People generally don't stoop to this level unless they feel threatened.

It's apparent you thought there was something to, at least, part of this when you said in the beginning:

Lutz wrote:
That the structure could be a meteorite-crater is very likely.


It wasn't until I started challenging your self-identified infallible views that you became hostile.

Now, I believe I asked you...


dreamregent wrote:
What is the holiest place in Atenism...aka the place where pilgrims would come to worship; the place where the largest public events, gatherings, festivals and services would be held; the place that would be used to focus the spiritual attention of all the adherents toward Akhnaten and, effectively, the Aten? Catholics have St. Peters Basilica, Jews have the Western Wall and Mormons have the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City (I'm not an adherent of any of them). Which building would be used for equivalent purposes and draw the largest crowds within the religion of Aten?


...but you didn't answer. Could it be that you are afraid of where I might end up going with this? I tried to let this go earlier, but... I hope you're prepared for the shock.

Obviously, the only possible answer is the Great Aten Temple but we will come back to this in a second. Get your relaxation method ready! Laughing

Now, let's review something you said previously:

Lutz wrote:
The name of the city itself gives the best explanation (and everyone who once was there will agree). In the mountains on the East there is a notch and in the morning the sun appears at its rising there. The notch in the mountain range and the solar disk together then form the hieroglyph "3ht" ("horizon", Gardiner N27, sunrise over mountain, the axis of the Small Temple of the Aten points in this direction). This may be the reason for Akhenaten's statement that the god had chosen the place.


From what you have shared so far, I am forced to assume that you place great emphasis on your little understanding here. In fact, it seems like most of your thought process regarding Amarna/Akhetaten is predicated on it. This predisposition, that you probably had before you ever visited the site, has caused you to suffer from tunnel vision while having the evidence right before your eyes. You have clearly stated the concept of an extremely literal application of the hieroglyph onto the landscape. This has apparently led you to believe the wadi is the most important feature of the site and in direct literal relation to the meaning of the name Akhetaten. You seem to be under the impression that a person could get a real-life sunrise view of the "3ht" hieroglyph through the notch and you apparently believe this was physically seen by Akhnaten from the Small Aten Temple. You literally state this belief in paraphrase within the quoted passage above. However, I will now use your very own photo to show everybody that this is, not only impossible, but also complete & utter nonsense.

Lutz wrote:
One picture says more than 1000 words...



It certainly does...more than 1000 words indeed! As you can see, if you look closely, there is an eocene sedimentary rock formation blocking the view through the notch and I assure you that rock formation has been there since long before the notion of Egypt even existed. A physical manifestation of that "3ht" hieroglyph has never, ever appeared within the landscape of Amarna as seen from the city through that notch! It is only possible for the sun to appear above the notch, not within it. Go search for images of this Akhet hieroglyph and compare the number you find depicting the sun above the notch against the number you find depicting the sun disk inside the notch. This necessarily means that, unless you try to cram a square peg in a round hole (fudge it), the "3ht" in the name is not a literal interpretation of that notch from the physical landscape. It has a figurative meaning and it may have multiple figurative meanings including as a reference to the notch. However, an exclusive literal connection between the physical notch from the landscape and the hieroglyph in the name is untenable and can not be supported with basic logic. Thus, basing your interpretation of the name Akhetaten on a literal reading of the landscape is also utter nonsense.

Moreover, I am further buttressed by the fact that the Great Aten Temple is the "holiest place in Atenism" by virtue of the fact it is the primary house of worship and primary focus of religious energy. It was not placed in alignment with the notch. This is rather conclusive in showing that the notch is not of primary importance to the Aten or Atenism. Atenism was not invented as Akhnaten's personal religion. It was invented so that it could be left to the people of the world forever long after Akhnaten was gone. And when he was dead, the people would figuratively worship him as part of the Aten but his physical body beyond the notch would not be the primary focus of worship. Thus, Akhnaten's intention was clearly for the people to take their cues about Aten from the Great Aten Temple and not from the notch.

The only apparent alignment of the Great Aten Temple, based on the current geography, is with the Winter Solstice. However, if the river is found to have taken a path as I have proposed above, we may very well find another alignment...that the Great Aten Temple was placed at the exact center of a circular landform, which could be yet another figurative representation of "3ht."

The Small Aten Temple is clearly a secondary temple, often thought of as a mortuary temple. It's importance is personal in nature to Akhnaten, the royal family and, I suppose, the dynasty he hoped to spawn. Clearly, he was Aten's intercessor, but a conclusion he was synonymous with Aten is simply untenable and can not be supported by currently established facts. The Small Temple has an extremely narrow religious focus and purpose of a personal nature which is reserved for a select few as compared to the activity at the Great Aten Temple. Additionally, it clearly was not the primary source of religious energy or worship directed at Aten, nor was it ever intended to be. And, neither is the notch!

I am also further buttressed on this by the boundary stelae themselves, which we have already talked about.

At this time, I think it's pretty safe to conclude that the "3ht" in the name is referring to Aten's birthplace (or place of creation/birth) in a number of different connotations and is not specific to any one feature.

Sorry for having to school you but you asked for it with the name-calling! If you're now suffering from apoplexy, go take a pill.
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PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamregent wrote:
... Sorry for having to school you ...

And what you dream at night? ... ... ...

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