Go to the Egyptian Dreams shop
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Has anyone ever looked into this?
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dreamregent
Citizen
Citizen


Joined: 14 Apr 2013
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Has anyone ever looked into this? Reply with quote

Hi... I can't find any research about Amarna and the possibility of past meteorite impact(s). Does anyone know of any existing research in this area? Due to the images below, it seems reasonable to ask the question and check this out...if it hasn't already been looked into.

I ask the question because of the following:

Quote:
As the Aten is beheld, the Aten desires that there be made for him [...] as a monument with an eternal and everlasting name. Now, it is the Aten, my father, who advised me concerning it, [namely] Akhetaten. No official has ever advised me concerning it, not any of the people who are in the entire land has ever advised me concerning it, to suggest making Akhetaten in this distant place. It was the Aten, my fath[er, who advised me] concerning it, so that it might be made for Him as Akhetaten... Behold, it is Pharaoh who has discovered it: not being the property of a god, not being the property of a goddess, not being the property of a ruler, not being the property of a female ruler, not being the property of any people to lay claim to it....

I shall make Akhetaten for the Aten, my father, in this place. I shall not make Akhetaten for him to the south of it, to the north of it, to the west of it, to the east of it. I shall not expand beyond the southern stela of Akhetaten toward the south, nor shall I expand beyond the northern stela of Akhetaten toward the north, in order to make Akhetaten for him there. Nor shall I make (it) for him on the western side of Akhetaten, but I shall make Akhetaten for the Aten, my father, on the east of Akhetaten, the place which He Himself made to be enclosed for Him by the mountain...

...

I shall make the “House of Rejoicing” for the Aten, my father, in the “Island of the Aten, Distinguished in Jubilees” in Akhetaten in this place... I shall make for myself the apartments of Pharaoh, I shall make the apartments of the Great King's Wife in Akhetaten in this place.


AND

  • In the first image below, Notice how the Nile has been taking a natural detour around the lower circle but is well on the path of eroding that side away. Also, do you think that broad wadi to the southeast is an old Nile flood channel? If so, that would certainly explain the lack of a curved rim in the only places where it's missing. The circles are 4.25 miles in diameter.


  • The other photo is an additional feature nearby. In fact, it is closer to the city ruins than the King's Tomb. I'm not sure what that is in the bottom...possibly sand? Google Earth doesn't resolve it well enough. The feature is 150 meters across (about 1 and 2/3 American football fields) and bears the classic resemblance of an impact crater. At this diameter, you could potentially stand next to it and not realize that it might be from a meteorite impact if it was not extremely deep. I found a catalog of Ancient Egyptian quarry sites and this location was not listed...and that land feature seems kind of large to be created by humans in a perfect circle. There are other nearby features that might merit the once-over from someone who knew what to look for as well.


Of course, the general area appears to be covered in holes, of which, the vast majority are clearly not from an impact.

The Area:



Amarna Crater (Yes, I already named it! lol):

[/quote]

    _________________
    Thanks,

    Joe
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
    dreamregent
    Citizen
    Citizen


    Joined: 14 Apr 2013
    Posts: 41

    PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    UPDATE:


    I know it may not look like it from the initial post, but I have actually been researching this possibility for quite some time. It took a few weeks since I posted this, but I was able to get in touch with Barry Kemp about this idea. I didn't ask for permission to reprint the emails so I'm not going to do so. However, you can find a much more extensive treatment of this idea by clicking here!

    At that site, I basically go through a presentation tying together the boundary stelae, photos and the conversation I had with Barry Kemp about it. Also, from a process of elimination, it seems very likely that at least the feature in the 2nd photo below is of extraterrestrial origin. Geological confirmation will still be needed but other possible causes for it just don't make much sense especially since it doesn't seem like anyone at the Amarna Project has ever noticed it.




    _________________
    Thanks,

    Joe
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
    Lutz
    Pharaoh
    Pharaoh


    Joined: 02 Sep 2007
    Posts: 4002
    Location: Berlin, Germany

    PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    That the structure could be a meteorite-crater is very likely. That Akhenaten experienced the impact of this meteorite, and pointing it as a sign of the Aten is in my view unlikely. Nothing in the texts for the establishing of the city points in this direction. The name of the city itself gives the best explanation (and everyone who once was there will agree). In the mountains on the East there is a notch and in the morning the sun appears at its rising there. The notch in the mountain range and the solar disk together then form the hieroglyph "3ht" ("horizon", Gardiner N27, sunrise over mountain, the axis of the Small Temple of the Aten points in this direction). This may be the reason for Akhenaten's statement that the god had chosen the place.

    And for your presumption about the sun disk with rays and hands (this other forum): Except that we already know it from the buildings at Thebes, the symbol of the sun disk with rays with hands at the end of beams is possible since Amenhotep II, and for secure since Thutmose IV known as a symbol for the god Aten, the sun disk as one of the bodyly forms of Ra. So it is clear and secure not an invention of Akhenaten.

    See for that...

    Sayed Tawfik : Aton Studies / 1 - Aton Before the Reign of Akhenaton. - In: Mitteilungen des Deutschen Archäologischen Instituts, Abteilung Kairo - MDAIK 29. - 1973. - pp. 77 - 86 (one of the so called "Prince-Stela" from Giza, extensively discussed here in the forum),

    and also...

    Nicolas Reeves : Akhenaten - Egypt's False Prophet. - London : Thames & Hudson, 2001. - ISBN : 0-500-05106-2. - 208 p. (in the German edition in chp. 3, on p. 55).

    Lutz
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
    Lutz
    Pharaoh
    Pharaoh


    Joined: 02 Sep 2007
    Posts: 4002
    Location: Berlin, Germany

    PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    One picture says more than 1000 words...



    Me in front of the sanctuary in the Small Temple of the Aten at Achetaten (November 2004). Behind in the mountain you see the notch. It is also the starting point of the wadi which leads to the Royal Tomb.

    Lutz
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
    dreamregent
    Citizen
    Citizen


    Joined: 14 Apr 2013
    Posts: 41

    PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Lutz wrote:
    That the structure could be a meteorite-crater is very likely. That Akhenaten experienced the impact of this meteorite, and pointing it as a sign of the Aten is in my view unlikely. Nothing in the texts for the establishing of the city points in this direction. The name of the city itself gives the best explanation (and everyone who once was there will agree). In the mountains on the East there is a notch and in the morning the sun appears at its rising there. The notch in the mountain range and the solar disk together then form the hieroglyph "3ht" ("horizon", Gardiner N27, sunrise over mountain, the axis of the Small Temple of the Aten points in this direction).


    I realize this is the interpretation generally assigned to it by Egyptologists based on available evidence. However, where is there a contemporary text spelling this out and explaining the reasoning? I'd like to see it.

    Boundary Stelae -- Amarna Project wrote:
    Now, it is the Aten, my father, who advised me concerning it, [namely] Akhetaten. No official has ever advised me concerning it, not any of the people who are in the entire land has ever advised me concerning it, to suggest making Akhetaten in this distant place. It was the Aten, my fath[er, who advised me] concerning it, so that it might be made for Him as Akhetaten... Behold, it is Pharaoh who has discovered it...


    Here, Aknaten states he "received a message" or "advice" from the Aten which, apparently, led him to "discover" the location of Amarna. I am equating this with a fireball flying through the sky and crashing @ Amarna.

    Lutz wrote:
    This may be the reason for Akhenaten's statement that the god had chosen the place.


    The boundary stelae says Aten "created" or "made" the "east of Akhetaten," not that he "chose" the location.

    Boundary Stelae -- Amarna Project wrote:
    Akhetaten, His place of creation, which He made for Himself that He might set within it every day...


    Boundary Stelae -- Amarna Project wrote:
    but I shall make Akhetaten for the Aten, my father, on the east of Akhetaten, the place which He Himself made to be enclosed for Him by the mountain...


    Here, he specifies that the Aten created the eastern part of Akhetaten and caused the mountain to enclose it...seemingly referring to the cliffs surrounding it in a circular fashion.

    Boundary Stelae -- Amarna Project wrote:
    I shall make the “House of Rejoicing” for the Aten, my father, in the “Island of the Aten, Distinguished in Jubilees” in Akhetaten in this place...


    The "House of Rejoicing" was, in fact, built in the eastern part, the same part of Akhetaten that the Aten "created." Also, future projects on Amarna may very well lend further support to the idea of Aknaten interpreting the geography of the Amarna plain as the "Island of the Aten" as their coring project from 2004-06 found that the current riverbed & flood plain beside the northern portion didn't encroach into the city until the late Roman period. This indicates that the river flowed farther to the west. They also found evidence of a water basin at the extreme north end of the site. They also state what appears to be an "assumption" that a canal may have been dug to that location. However, this could also potentially indicate that the path of the river detoured around a northern circle just as it is a southern circle (see image in the first post above). Of course, this has not been shown through testing, yet, because the website doesn't indicate any further work on that has been done but I am merely pointing out that this may be the case. If so, you would have a landmass looking a lot like the circles I have drawn. However, I do want to be clear. This does not prove that the plain of Amarna is also of meteoric impact origin (more testing/research would have to be done to prove that)...I am only addressing Akhnaten's potential reading of the geography and why he would say the Aten created the "east of Akhetaten" and described it as the "Island of the Aten."

    Lutz wrote:
    And for your presumption about the sun disk with rays and hands (this other forum): Except that we already know it from the buildings at Thebes, the symbol of the sun disk with rays with hands at the end of beams is possible since Amenhotep II, and for secure since Thutmose IV known as a symbol for the god Aten, the sun disk as one of the bodyly forms of Ra. So it is clear and secure not an invention of Akhenaten.


    I am aware that there was a build-up to the Amarna period in both the theology and the artistic style. I never claimed the motif was an invention of Akhnaten, but neither were meteor showers. That is completely consistent with the way I have interpreted it. In fact, it also would support the reasoning behind the prominent explosion of Atenism as a religion if it was further reinforced by a local fireball/meteorite fall. There is no need to ascribe a different meaning to the motif just because Akhnaten expanded its usage.
    _________________
    Thanks,

    Joe
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
    Lutz
    Pharaoh
    Pharaoh


    Joined: 02 Sep 2007
    Posts: 4002
    Location: Berlin, Germany

    PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    The name of the city was "Horizon of the Aten", not "Impact hole of the Aten"...

    Lutz
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
    dreamregent
    Citizen
    Citizen


    Joined: 14 Apr 2013
    Posts: 41

    PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Lutz wrote:
    One picture says more than 1000 words...



    Me in front of the sanctuary in the Small Temple of the Aten at Achetaten (November 2004). Behind in the mountain you see the notch. It is also the starting point of the wadi which leads to the Royal Tomb.

    Lutz


    Hey, I completely get where you're coming from on this. Please don't think I'm just being dismissive because I realize that my reasoning is unorthodox. But, the entire situation around Akhnaten was also unorthodox. It's also worth pointing out that the sun does not rise through that gap as seen from that perspective all the time. Through the year, the point of the sun's rising would appear to move north or south as seen from any one spot.
    _________________
    Thanks,

    Joe
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
    dreamregent
    Citizen
    Citizen


    Joined: 14 Apr 2013
    Posts: 41

    PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Lutz wrote:
    The name of the city was "Horizon of the Aten", not "Impact hole of the Aten"...

    Lutz


    Sure, but the word "horizon" doesn't necessarily have to refer to the "sun rising." You can see the horizon in all directions...it is the visible extent of land all the way around. You could also draw an inference as a reference to looking around from the "Island of the Aten."
    _________________
    Thanks,

    Joe
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
    Lutz
    Pharaoh
    Pharaoh


    Joined: 02 Sep 2007
    Posts: 4002
    Location: Berlin, Germany

    PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    dreamregent wrote:
    Hey, I completely get where you're coming from on this. ...

    I am not only writing for you ...

    dreamregent wrote:
    ... It's also worth pointing out that the sun does not rise through that gap as seen from that perspective all the time. Through the year, the point of the sun's rising would appear to move north or south as seen from any one spot.

    But it is the general direction that the sun goes up in the morning. And at a special time in the year she is doing it in the notch in the mountains. And it is the hieroglyph "Akhet" that sun and mountain form and the city is called "Achetaten". Is this in your opinion just a coincidence? And why this should not be the sign of the god Aten, that Akhenaten mentioned, I can not quite understand...

    And, by the way, Aten was the creater of all, not only of this place.

    dreamregent wrote:
    ... the word "horizon" doesn't necessarily have to refer to the "sun rising." ...

    We are not talking about the meaning of the modern word "horizon". We are talking about the ancient Egyptien word "3ht". And this is the place where the sun is reborn in the morning, the place of the sunrise.

    Lutz
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
    dreamregent
    Citizen
    Citizen


    Joined: 14 Apr 2013
    Posts: 41

    PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I completely get where you're coming from. Naturally, the Aten, as the sole god, is responsible for all of creation. However, the boundary stela is much more specific to the actual location on the east of Akhetaten. It specifically says that this exact spot was created by the Aten and the Aten caused the mountain to enclose it...further, it refers to the same piece of land as the Island of the Aten. Do you have an explanation for why it says that if it doesn't mean exactly what it says?
    _________________
    Thanks,

    Joe
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
    dreamregent
    Citizen
    Citizen


    Joined: 14 Apr 2013
    Posts: 41

    PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    I mean, I really do get it on the 3ht thing. However, I just don't see where that is in contradiction with the idea of a meteor fall as a catalyst for Akhnaten coming here to build a city and the way he refers to the site in the boundary stelae. For me, it's just not an either/or proposition. Further, with the likely presence of at least one impact crater (and possibly others) that may very well be contemporary with the Amarna period combined with the apparent physical geography of the location, it just all fits together in my mind.
    _________________
    Thanks,

    Joe
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
    Lutz
    Pharaoh
    Pharaoh


    Joined: 02 Sep 2007
    Posts: 4002
    Location: Berlin, Germany

    PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    William J. Murnane [Ed. by Edmund S. Meltzer] : Texts from the Amarna period in Egypt. - [Writings from the Ancient World 5]. - Atlanta : Scholars Press, 1995. - ISBN : 1-55540-965-2; 1-55540-966-0. - XVIII, 289 p., from page 74:


    (From the Earlier Proclamation.)

    Aten / Akhenaten (for the god) made this "3ht", "Achetaten". The place of the primeval event, the place of creation, also often discriped as island. It is his horizon where he, the Aten, comes to being, rises up in the morning. Not where something falls down from haven...

    dreamregent wrote:
    ... presence of at least one impact crater (and possibly others) that may very well be contemporary with the Amarna period ...

    What are all pure conjecture on your part so far and has yet to be proven. And to make an omelet from unplaced eggs ... I do not like personally.

    Lutz
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
    dreamregent
    Citizen
    Citizen


    Joined: 14 Apr 2013
    Posts: 41

    PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    There are numerous translations with different wording (and sometimes a different order due to only fragments remaining) but I don't see where any of them are really inconsistent at the end of the day...this one also says the Aten created this spot to set within it daily, then it says "his son" built himself a monument within it. I see that you're showing different wording but the meaning seems to be largely the same. You seem to be implying there is an inconsistency but I haven't seen it yet.
    _________________
    Thanks,

    Joe
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
    dreamregent
    Citizen
    Citizen


    Joined: 14 Apr 2013
    Posts: 41

    PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Lutz wrote:
    dreamregent wrote:
    ... presence of at least one impact crater (and possibly others) that may very well be contemporary with the Amarna period ...

    What are all pure conjecture on your part so far and has yet to be proven. And to make an omelet from unplaced eggs ... I do not like personally.


    Well, you yourself said at the very beginning:

    Lutz wrote:
    That the structure could be a meteorite-crater is very likely.


    Now, make no mistake, I do understand this is all predicated on scientific confirmation. However, it's not like I don't have some kind of basis to go on. I think you know that.
    _________________
    Thanks,

    Joe
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
    dreamregent
    Citizen
    Citizen


    Joined: 14 Apr 2013
    Posts: 41

    PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    Also, primeval creation events are generally associated with a "mound" but there is no mound here. It's essentially a hole in the ground with semi-circular cliffs surrounding it.
    _________________
    Thanks,

    Joe
    Back to top
    View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
    Display posts from previous:   
    Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Egyptian Dreams Forum Index -> Evidence from Amarna All times are GMT
    Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
    Page 1 of 4

     
    Jump to:  
    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum


    Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group