Click on the logo to visit the shop |
Egyptian Dreams
Ancient Egypt Discussion Board
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Serapis Liber
Citizen
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 23
|
 Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:55 am Post subject: Book of the Dead Spell 159- who are they? |
 |
|
Hello all. I was wondering if anyone here knows, or has a confident guess, as to what the identities are of the characters referenced in Spell 159? I've been going off of Faulkner's translation republished in 1998- http://books.google.com/books?id=La9K8fp-BcMC&pg=PA125#v=onepage&q&f=false
They are all ambiguous, but based on the the context of the preceding spells, I have leaned towards Isis being the "she," Geb being her father "the bull of the nursing goddess," and Nut being the nursing goddess. But I'm not really sure. Isis is the female of the two preceding spells, and Geb is mentioned in the spell just prior. But then three spells prior Osiris is reference as "Father," plus I know that there some Egyptian texts out there in which Osiris is referred to as the "father" of Isis, and Isis referred to as "mother" of Osiris. Seems even back then spouses could fall into the habit of calling each other "ma" & "pa," lol. Anyway, I guess that is the main source of my confusion. I know there are a few places where Geb is called a bull, but Osiris is called a bull much more often, plus as the son of Nut, who was often a cow, it kind of makes sense for Osiris to be bull of the "nursing goddess" here, a suckling calf of the great cow, if you will, rather than Geb to be the bull. Unless perhaps Tefnut is the "nursing goddess" here? I just don't know. Any thoughts on this? All inputs are welcome. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Lutz
Pharaoh
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3789
Location: Berlin, Germany
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Your link is not working anymore (in Germany...). Very helpful for those questions is the page of the Totenbuch-Projekt der Universität Bonn, but it is only in German available (as far as I know). Here appears in the translation the designation "Stier der Renenet" ("Bull of Renenet"). Renenet is often the wife of Geb.
Greetings, Lutz. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Serapis Liber
Citizen
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 23
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lutz wrote: | | Your link is not working anymore (in Germany...). |
Well that's annoying. Here's Faulkner's text (and so much for the allegation that BBCode here "offers greater control over what and how something is displayed" ):
—159 —
Chapter for a papyrus-column of green feldspar
to be placed on the throat of the deceased
O you who have come forth today from the god’s house, She whose voice is loud goes round about from the door of the Two Houses, she has assumed the power of her father, who is ennobled as Bull of the Nursing Goddess, and she accepts those of her followers who do great deeds to her.
To be spoken over a golden collar with this spell inscribed on it;
it is to be set on the throne of the deceased on the day of internment.
| Lutz wrote: | Very helpful for those questions is the page of the Totenbuch-Projekt der Universität Bonn, but it is only in German available (as far as I know). Here appears in the translation the designation "Stier der Renenet" ("Bull of Renenet"). Renenet is often the wife of Geb.
Greetings, Lutz. |
Renenet, eh? That's an entirely different goddess altogether. Now I'm even more confused. Do you know of any other references that associate Geb with Renenet? Wikipedia is, well, Wikipedia, and so if I don't see anything else associating Renenet with Geb, then Geb is no longer a prime candidate for the bull, as far as I'm concerned. Unless, of course, some identification of Renenet with Nut can also be made. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lutz
Pharaoh
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3789
Location: Berlin, Germany
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Serapis Liber wrote: | | Lutz wrote: | | Your link is not working anymore (in Germany...). |
Well that's annoying. ...(and so much for the allegation that BBCode here "offers greater control over what and how something is displayed")... |
I would say this is more a problem because of the limitations by Google.
| Serapis Liber wrote: | ... Here's Faulkner's text:
—159 —
Chapter for a papyrus-column of green feldspar
to be placed on the throat of the deceased
O you who have come forth today from the god’s house, She whose voice is loud goes round about from the door of the Two Houses, she has assumed the power of her father, who is ennobled as Bull of the Nursing Goddess, and she accepts those of her followers who do great deeds to her.
To be spoken over a golden collar with this spell inscribed on it;
it is to be set on the throne of the deceased on the day of internment. ... |
And here the one from Renouf / Naville : The Egyptian Book of the Dead. - London : SBA, 1904. - pp. 327 - 8:
| Quote: | "... CHAPTER CLIX.
The Chapter of the column of green Felspar, (i) put on the neck
of the deceased.
O thou who comest out every day, in the divine house, she who
has a big voice, who goeth round ... She takes hold of the
potent formulae of her father, the mummy which is on the bull. (2)
She is Renent ...
Said on a column of green Felspar, on which this Chapter has been
written, and which is put on the neck of the deceased.
Notes.
The vignelte of this Chapter and the next, show distinctly that
the [sign papyrus capital] is a miniature column or tent-pole, with the papyrus capital, and papyrus leaves at the base. This Chapter is taken from the Turin text; parts of it are quite unintelligible
1. A mineral which has not yet been determined. Brugsch calls it " Opal." Lepsius thought its colour was blue. Dr. Budge translates " mother-of-emerald." Renouf's translation is "green Felspar" (see Chapter 29B, note).
2. The mummy carried off by the Apis bull, a representation often seen on the coffins after the XXIInd dynasty. ... |
and "Totenbuch - Projekt" University Bonn (B. Backes, from a Ptolemaic text):
| Quote: | "... Spruch für ein Papyrus-Amulett aus Feldspat, indem es an die Kehle des "Verklärten" gelegt wird. Von Osiris NN, gerechtfertigt, zu sprechen:
Oh (du), der heute aus dem Haus des Gottes heraustritt, es spricht die Große! Sie zieht daher aus dem Eingang des Doppelten Hauses. Sie hat die Ach-Macht ihres Vaters übernommen, dieses Edlen als Stier der Renenet. Sie empfängt jene ihre Gefolgsleute. Sie hat einmal dort, einmal hier gehandelt.
Über ein Papyrus-Amulett aus Feldspat zu sprechen, auf das dieser Spruch geschrieben ist, indem es an die Kehle des "Verklärten" gelegt wird. ..." |
| Quote: | "... Spell for a papyrus amulet of feldspar, by placing it at the throat of the "Clarified". To speak of Osiris NN, justified:
Oh (you), which comes out today from the house of the God, it speaks the Great! Therefore, she goes out from the entrance of the double house. She took over her father's "ach"-power, this noble one as the Taurus of Renenet. She receives those their followers. She once there, once traded here.
Talk about a papyrus amulet of feldspar to which this spell is written, by placing it at the throat of the "Clarified". |
It is therefore to be expected not only different versions by time and place, of course we also have differences in the translations. The connection Renenet - Geb seems to me not so groundless. Both are gods of fertility, sowing and harvesting. At the local level or at certain festivals I can imagine that very well.
Greetings, Lutz. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Serapis Liber
Citizen
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 23
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lutz wrote: | | I would say this is more a problem because of the limitations by Google. |
Right, fair enough.
| Lutz wrote: |
And here the one from Renouf / Naville : The Egyptian Book of the Dead. - London : SBA, 1904. - pp. 327 - 8:
| Quote: | "... CHAPTER CLIX.
The Chapter of the column of green Felspar, (i) put on the neck
of the deceased.
O thou who comest out every day, in the divine house, she who
has a big voice, who goeth round ... She takes hold of the
potent formulae of her father, the mummy which is on the bull. (2)
She is Renent ...
Said on a column of green Felspar, on which this Chapter has been
written, and which is put on the neck of the deceased.
Notes.
The vignelte of this Chapter and the next, show distinctly that
the [sign papyrus capital] is a miniature column or tent-pole, with the papyrus capital, and papyrus leaves at the base. This Chapter is taken from the Turin text; parts of it are quite unintelligible
1. A mineral which has not yet been determined. Brugsch calls it " Opal." Lepsius thought its colour was blue. Dr. Budge translates " mother-of-emerald." Renouf's translation is "green Felspar" (see Chapter 29B, note).
2. The mummy carried off by the Apis bull, a representation often seen on the coffins after the XXIInd dynasty. ... |
and "Totenbuch - Projekt" University Bonn (B. Backes, from a Ptolemaic text):
| Quote: | "... Spruch für ein Papyrus-Amulett aus Feldspat, indem es an die Kehle des "Verklärten" gelegt wird. Von Osiris NN, gerechtfertigt, zu sprechen:
Oh (du), der heute aus dem Haus des Gottes heraustritt, es spricht die Große! Sie zieht daher aus dem Eingang des Doppelten Hauses. Sie hat die Ach-Macht ihres Vaters übernommen, dieses Edlen als Stier der Renenet. Sie empfängt jene ihre Gefolgsleute. Sie hat einmal dort, einmal hier gehandelt.
Über ein Papyrus-Amulett aus Feldspat zu sprechen, auf das dieser Spruch geschrieben ist, indem es an die Kehle des "Verklärten" gelegt wird. ..." |
| Quote: | "... Spell for a papyrus amulet of feldspar, by placing it at the throat of the "Clarified". To speak of Osiris NN, justified:
Oh (you), which comes out today from the house of the God, it speaks the Great! Therefore, she goes out from the entrance of the double house. She took over her father's "ach"-power, this noble one as the Taurus of Renenet. She receives those their followers. She once there, once traded here.
Talk about a papyrus amulet of feldspar to which this spell is written, by placing it at the throat of the "Clarified". |
|
That translation and footnote by Naville actually makes a lot more sense. I didn't know "power" there was "akh," and I have read that akh is associated with the state of the dead after transfiguration. While mummy isn't perhaps the best word, I think it makes more sense, for me at least, to understand that as the bull, in this case Apis, carrying off the akh of the deceased to the afterlife. So I guess I was off in guessing the "she" of this text is Isis. Sounds more like "she" is either Renenet herself and/or a relative/daughter of the deceased acting in the role of Renenet.
I guess a translation being more current doesn't necessarily make it more accurate, eh?
Thanks for your response. This has been a huge help. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Serapis Liber
Citizen
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 23
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BTW, do you know what are the credits for that Totenbuch translation in case I wanted to cite it in the future? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lutz
Pharaoh
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3789
Location: Berlin, Germany
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As still said, I think very important for an interpretation is the time in which the text was written. During the reign of the Ptolemies were indeed more or less all the female deities a little bit Isis... 
| Serapis Liber wrote: | | ... do you know what are the credits for that Totenbuch translation ... |
If you mean the one by Renouf / Naville, that is online for download : The Egyptian Book of the dead (1904) (PDF, 25 MB).
Greetings, Lutz. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Serapis Liber
Citizen
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 23
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Actually, I was referring to that German(?) one you quoted after Naville, where you prefaced "Totenbuch - Projekt" University Bonn (B. Backes, from a Ptolemaic text)". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lutz
Pharaoh
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3789
Location: Berlin, Germany
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lutz
Pharaoh
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 3789
Location: Berlin, Germany
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This should be (?) the appropriate part from P. Turin 1791, translated by Backes:
(Totenbuch-Projekt, Bonn)
Greetings, Lutz. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
neseret
Vizier
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lutz wrote: | This should be (?) the appropriate part from P. Turin 1791, translated by Backes:
(Totenbuch-Projekt, Bonn) |
It is the appropriate section, Lutz. 
The pertinent phrase is at the top of the left column, just below the owl glyph, reading /kA (n) Rnn.t/, "bull of the nursing goddess" = (Renenet). Renenet's name actually means "she who suckles/nurses" + a goddess determinative.
Here is the same section of the papyri, with the phrase /kA (n) Rnn.t/ highlighted, here.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg
Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Serapis Liber
Citizen
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 23
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Outstanding. Thanks again, folks. But am I to take it that Renenet's name could also potentially be used as an epithet for any mother suckling their child? Or is that stretching things too far? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
neseret
Vizier
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Serapis Liber wrote: | | Outstanding. Thanks again, folks. But am I to take it that Renenet's name could also potentially be used as an epithet for any mother suckling their child? Or is that stretching things too far? |
/rnn..t/ - with a determinative of female sucking an infant - could mean simply "nurse (fem.)."
However, in this instance, the determinative is that of a goddess, so it is the goddess Renenet that is meant.
I am not clear why you seem to want to have this text read as something it does not say, when in pTurin it is clearly a reference to a goddess named Renenet.
This would be true - somewhat universally, I'd say - to any Book of the Dead version of this particular spell. It is not a reference to Nut, Isis,. etc., as far as I can see.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg
Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Serapis Liber
Citizen
Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 23
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I am not clear why you seem to want to have this text read as something it does not say |
I am not clear why you came to that conclusion. I thought we were all being productive here, and I even replied to you on Sunday in the ANE group that I had considered the matter settled. The Spell refers to Renenet, end of story, I haven't contested that since Lutz clued me into it several days ago. I... I really just don't know what else to say here, other than I regret that the internet still has limitations on how well we can communicate our thoughts and intentions.
But again, I'm glad you were able to help me out here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
neseret
Vizier
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 1033
Location: United Kingdom
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Serapis Liber wrote: | | Quote: | | I am not clear why you seem to want to have this text read as something it does not say |
I am not clear why you came to that conclusion. I thought we were all being productive here, and I even replied to you on Sunday in the ANE group that I had considered the matter settled. The Spell refers to Renenet, end of story, I haven't contested that since Lutz clued me into it several days ago. I... I really just don't know what else to say here, other than I regret that the internet still has limitations on how well we can communicate our thoughts and intentions.
But again, I'm glad you were able to help me out here. |
You asked if this set of signs could refer to any mother who nursed/suckled: that would be /rnn.t/ with a determinative of a nursing mother (Gardiner sign B6), as I noted in my ANE and ED responses.
But in this case, the determinative is that of a goddess (Gardiner sign B1, which can identify a goddess, /nTr.t/, as well as a woman). So, the reference is not so much an epithet for a "nursing mother" but to a specific goddess, Renenet.
This is why Faulkner refers to the phrase as "Bull of the Nursing Goddess," because (quite literally) that's what the phrase says. However, I have no doubt that Faulkner knew that the goddess Renenet is the "Nursing Goddess," and could have equally translated it as "Bull of Renenet" had he so chose.
The phrase in Egyptian is /kA (with both a phallus and bull determinatives) (n) Rnn.t (with a goddess determinative)/. There is really no other way to see the phrase other than being a statement about a goddess, and in specific, the "nursing goddess", who is called Renenet.
I agree that the Internet is not always the best form of communication: I tend to come across harshly when all I am trying to do is be clear and specific.
I also tend to forget that not everyone can see these glyphs and obtain the same information that I do (not that I am by any means an expert in ancient Egyptian, but that only I can read them with a little more precision than some). This is what I have trained to do, so don't take my comments as being solely directed at you as a criticism: I just can't see any other way to translate this phrase and have tried to explain why it translates as it does.
HTH.
_________________
Katherine Griffis-Greenberg
Doctoral Candidate
Oriental Institute
Oriental Studies
Doctoral Programme [Egyptology]
Oxford University
Oxford, United Kingdom |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
