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Neith in KV9: Book of the day (?)
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Harsomtis
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Neith in KV9: Book of the day (?) Reply with quote

Hello, i found in a book a nice pic (good quality) of Neith as the sky above egypt and a lot of gods. It is from the thomb of Ramses VI.

I want to paint it in my bedroom - and that was why i was looking for the translation of the names of all the guys (and girls) on it... But all i could find, was, that the pic i have is not complete Smile

Here it is complete: https://egyptianaemporium.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/kv9-5.jpg

They all should be gods - there are similar pics where some gods were added (e.g. i read about Sobek). I found some google-books about it - but the chapter i was looking for, was not public.

Can anyone help me with that famous painting?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Neith in KV9: Book of the day (?) Reply with quote

Harsomtis wrote:
Hello, i found in a book a nice pic (good quality) of Neith as the sky above egypt and a lot of gods. It is from the thomb of Ramses VI.


This is the goddess NUT, not Neith. Nut, as the terrestrial Sky, absorbs the sun-god every evening and gives birth to him every morning, as shown in this image.

Harsomtis wrote:
I want to paint it in my bedroom - and that was why i was looking for the translation of the names of all the guys (and girls) on it... But all i could find, was, that the pic i have is not complete Smile

Here it is complete: https://egyptianaemporium.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/kv9-5.jpg

They all should be gods ...Can anyone help me with that famous painting?


The quality of this mages isn't as good as one might hope for. However, I can check my copy of the Tomb of Ramses VI plates, in a few days (I'm away from my library) and see if I can assist.

HTH.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Neith in KV9: Book of the day (?) Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
This is the goddess NUT, not Neith. Nut, as the terrestrial Sky, absorbs the sun-god every evening and gives birth to him every morning, as shown in this image.

Half of the vaulted ceiling of the sarcophagus hall gives the "Book of the Day", the other half the "Book of the Night" (Nut is depicted twice, back to back, the Nut with the sun disks is for the day, the one with the stars for the night) :


(Piankoff, The Tomb of Ramesses VI, Vol.1, 1954, p. 386)

Some good images can be found at : The Theban Mapping Project ---> KV 9 (Rameses V and Rameses VI) : Burial chamber J

neseret wrote:
... However, I can check my copy of the Tomb of Ramses VI plates, in a few days (I'm away from my library) and see if I can assist.

For the detailed description of both books and the depicted gods see

Alexandre Piankoff : The Tomb of Ramesses VI - Egyptian Religious Texts and Representations - Vol. 1. - New York : Pantheon, 1954. - p. 389 - 407 (Book of the Day) & p. 409 - 428 (Book of the Night).

Greetings, Lutz.
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Serapis Liber
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, so that's interesting, with the swallowed sun indicating the day sky, it seems this pic is telling us that Nut swallows the sun in the East. I had always been under the impression that she did so in the West, with various books saying there was some overlap between sky and netherworld where the sky extends beyond the visible horizon. I suppose this just represents variant traditions then?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serapis Liber wrote:
Hmmm, so that's interesting, with the swallowed sun indicating the day sky, it seems this pic is telling us that Nut swallows the sun in the East. ...

No, she is doing it also in KV 9 - Ramses V. / VI. in the West. On page 385 Piankoff quotes from J. F. Champollion : Lettres ecrites d'Egypte et de Nubie, en 1828 et 1829. - Paris, 1833. - Thirteenth letter, p. 194:

Quote:
"The sky, under the shape of a woman, the body covered with stars, frames this enormous composition on three sides. The torso is lengthened out over the whole tableau, and forms its upper part; the head is in the West; the arms and legs are the limits of the composition."

Greetings, Lutz.
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Harsomtis
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serapis Liber wrote:
Hmmm, so that's interesting, with the swallowed sun indicating the day sky, it seems this pic is telling us that Nut swallows the sun in the East. I had always been under the impression that she did so in the West?


I think the egyptians know nature very well - so everyone knew, the sun is going down in the west. So I think there is again a "special perspective in art" with nut: the river is correct and nut must be turned by 90° "3d" above the scene?

Because in my opinion the blue thing is the Nile - right the delta; and on the left 2 rivers building the begin of the Nile?

So in my opinion the picture is a) astronomical (sun, stars, nut is the sky) b) geographic (two rivers or a sea in the south, then the Nile flowing to the North to the sea) c) theological (a lot of gods. Maybe regional gods as an addition to b)? Or all "important" gods of the universe - because it is the book of the day, not of the night/underworld?)

I found the pic in a book published by time-life... There some names are readable. But I cannot see any sense (the second in the first line standing like Min without Phallus is swt-h?) It is a very famous pic - a very famous thomb. So someone with more knowledge did already translate it. But here are no libaries - and i cannot find anything online Sad
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harsomtis wrote:
Serapis Liber wrote:
Hmmm, so that's interesting, with the swallowed sun indicating the day sky, it seems this pic is telling us that Nut swallows the sun in the East. I had always been under the impression that she did so in the West?

I think the egyptians know nature very well - so everyone knew, the sun is going down in the west. So I think there is again a "special perspective in art" with nut: the river is correct and nut must be turned by 90° "3d" above the scene? ...

No. The heavenly and the underworld river on which the sun god moves in his barque is located inside the body of the sky goddess and flows from East to West during the day and at night from West to East. He is not orientated to the direction of the flow of the earthly Nile.

Harsomtis wrote:
... So in my opinion the picture is a) astronomical (sun, stars, nut is the sky) b) geographic (two rivers or a sea in the south, then the Nile flowing to the North to the sea) c) theological (a lot of gods. ...

The Books of Day and Night are pure theological compositions. They do not reflect the earthly geographic. They give a mythological geographic of haven and underworld, logically similar to that what the Egyptians surrounded, but also logic not resembling it. For example, the blue triangles appear in several Underworld books. However, they are nowhere identified or associated with the Nile-Delta. It is the transition region between heaven and the underworld, called for example in the Imydwat, "Wernes".

Harsomtis wrote:
... But here are no libaries - and i cannot find anything online Sad

In Austria there are no libraries? This assertion I consider myself pretty for rural areas as absurd ... And there is the document delivery service, also available in / for Austria, subito. There you can order books or parts of books as copy. The necessary information for order a copy (PDF as download, or copy-print) can be found in my posts in this thread.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
... The heavenly and the underworld river on which the sun god moves in his barque is located inside the body of the sky goddess ...

Little correction: the havenly river from the Book of the Day is on (not inside) the body of Nut.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Serapis Liber
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:

No, she is doing it also in KV 9 - Ramses V. / VI. in the West. On page 385 Piankoff quotes from J. F. Champollion : Lettres ecrites d'Egypte et de Nubie, en 1828 et 1829. - Paris, 1833. - Thirteenth letter, p. 194:

Quote:
"The sky, under the shape of a woman, the body covered with stars, frames this enormous composition on three sides. The torso is lengthened out over the whole tableau, and forms its upper part; the head is in the West; the arms and legs are the limits of the composition."

Greetings, Lutz.


Yes, we're in agreement on that, as I had said. What I mean is if the sun inside her represents the day time sky here, well, during the day the sun travels from East to West, thus it would by imply that She swallowed him in the East. Unless of course, she just swallowed him and immediately turned around 180°. dontknow

Or is it that the black circles along her torso there do not indicate the sun is inside her body, but rather the more familiar notion of the sun moving along the surface of her body?

But then again, as you already said, the focus here was theology rather than geography and physics etc., so it may be that persons like myself are "thinking too much" in respect to details like these.


Harsomtis wrote:
I think the egyptians know nature very well - so everyone knew, the sun is going down in the west.


In no way did I try to imply that they did not know when and where the sun went down, nor did I mean that the scene in which Nut swallows the sun in the West mean that the daytime sun moves in reverse. What I mean is that based on my readings I had always understood it that the sun is swallowed in the the West in the evening, thus blocked from visibility, moves inside(as Lutz already said) Nut from West to East during the night, and is then born from her opposite end in the East at dawn.

So this particular image departs from that understanding (or so I think dontknow).
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Serapis Liber
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, in response to the actual OP question, I'm still looking as well for a photograph of the actual complete scene, but just incase we don't find one, here is a decent replica made for a rug- http://www.saams.com/Egypt/Mut_Day_and_Night.jpg
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serapis Liber wrote:
Lutz wrote:

No, she is doing it also in KV 9 - Ramses V. / VI. in the West. On page 385 Piankoff quotes from J. F. Champollion : Lettres ecrites d'Egypte et de Nubie, en 1828 et 1829. - Paris, 1833. - Thirteenth letter, p. 194:

Quote:
"The sky, under the shape of a woman, the body covered with stars, frames this enormous composition on three sides. The torso is lengthened out over the whole tableau, and forms its upper part; the head is in the West; the arms and legs are the limits of the composition."

Yes, we're in agreement on that, as I had said. What I mean is if the sun inside her represents the day time sky here, ...

As I have still written in my posts (Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:49 pm & 4:47 pm) here in this thread, in the Book of the Day the sun god travels on a barque from East to West the havenly river on the body of the goddess Nut. So, he comes in the evening to her head / mouth. Nut is swallowing him and he travels from West to East on the river in the underworld inside the body of the goddess. Where is the problem?

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
As I have still written in my posts (Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:49 pm & 4:47 pm) here in this thread, in the Book of the Day the sun god travels on a barque from East to West the havenly river on the body of the goddess Nut. So, he comes in the evening to her head / mouth. Nut is swallowing him and he travels from West to East on the river in the underworld inside the body of the goddess. Where is the problem?

Greetings, Lutz.


The problem isn't with anything you wrote. My problem was getting my head around what's going on in the picture. Since, when you typed the above, you were referencing the flow of the river my mind didn't correlate that to the fact that you might have been referencing it specifically to the scene in the OP. I just thought you were making that point in a generic way just as I had. Now I know you did indeed mean it to apply to that scene as well, just as I suspected in my previous post. Thanks. Although, to be fair, upon re-reading your post just now, you did write that the sun god is on the river, while the river itself was inside of Nut, which is ambiguous enough to leave the impression that everything is going inside:

"The heavenly and the underworld river on which the sun god moves in his barque is located inside the body of the sky goddess and flows from East to West"

Since that sentence only references one river, perhaps you can see where one might get the such an impression. It sounds like there's only one river and that it is located on the inside. Now I see that you are saying (if I understand you correctly) that the river flows in a continuous circuit both inside and outside of Nut, with the inner portion being the night time flow from West-East, and the outer being the day time flow from East-West.

I assume now that the sun disks shown on Nut's torso on the day time side of the image is either the sun moving along her outer surface, or it is simply projecting forward to what happens to the sun at night after it is swallowed[?].

Perhaps the true point of confusion for myself and others is that the river shown flowing into Nut's mouth is positioned significantly below her body rather than right along her body. But I suppose that was done for aesthetic purposes or something to that effect.

Because the river isn't shown directly on her body, my initial impression was that this river is supposed to be position in the "under"world below the earth and is distinct from Nut herself.

LOL, this Egyptian stuff gets convoluted sometimes.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serapis Liber wrote:
... Although, to be fair, upon re-reading your post just now, you did write that the sun god is on the river, while the river itself was inside of Nut, which is ambiguous enough to leave the impression that everything is going inside:

"The heavenly and the underworld river on which the sun god moves in his barque is located inside the body of the sky goddess and flows from East to West" ...

I did, but gave in my next post the correction : "Little correction: the havenly river from the Book of the Day is on (not inside) the body of Nut.".

Serapis Liber wrote:
...the river flows in a continuous circuit both inside and outside of Nut, with the inner portion being the night time flow from West-East, and the outer being the day time flow from East-West. ... I assume now that the sun disks shown on Nut's torso on the day time side of the image is either the sun moving along her outer surface, ...

Exactly. In principle, the goddess is represented only once (?). The cut / the duplication serves to link the two books in one picture (in my view).

Serapis Liber wrote:
... Perhaps the true point of confusion for myself and others is that the river shown flowing into Nut's mouth is positioned significantly below her body rather than right along her body. But I suppose that was done for aesthetic purposes or something to that effect. ...

I think the artistic realization is pretty awesome. The books contain not only a river on which the sun god travels, the accompanying texts and its ontorage together with the beings he encounters must indeed also appear. And so the solution of the register division (similar to the Imydwat) is simply awesome.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
I did, but gave in my next post the correction : "Little correction: the havenly river from the Book of the Day is on (not inside) the body of Nut.".

Ah, yes, I see now. My apologies. Embarassed

Quote:
Exactly. In principle, the goddess is represented only once (?). The cut / the duplication serves to link the two books in one picture (in my view).


Ahhhh, okay, gotcha. Glad that's been resolved.

Quote:
I think the artistic realization is pretty awesome. The books contain not only a river on which the sun god travels, the accompanying texts and its ontorage together with the beings he encounters must indeed also appear. And so the solution of the register division (similar to the Imydwat) is simply awesome.

Greetings, Lutz.


Agreed. Thanks again for your insights.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Harsomtis wrote:
Serapis Liber wrote:
Hmmm, so that's interesting, with the swallowed sun indicating the day sky, it seems this pic is telling us that Nut swallows the sun in the East. I had always been under the impression that she did so in the West?

I think the egyptians know nature very well - so everyone knew, the sun is going down in the west. So I think there is again a "special perspective in art" with nut: the river is correct and nut must be turned by 90° "3d" above the scene? ...

No. The heavenly and the underworld river on which the sun god moves in his barque [...] flows from East to West during the day and at night from West to East. He is not orientated to the direction of the flow of the earthly Nile.


Is that the (official) interpretation or is it written on the wall?


Lutz wrote:
Harsomtis wrote:
... So in my opinion the picture is a) astronomical (sun, stars, nut is the sky) b) geographic (two rivers or a sea in the south, then the Nile flowing to the North to the sea) c) theological (a lot of gods. ...

The Books of Day and Night are pure theological compositions. They do not reflect the earthly geographic.


hmmm... but they are at least inspired by earthly geographic (this river-culture thought, that there must be a big river also in the otherworld?) if so, the beginning of that "theological" river is likely influenced by their (idea of the) real river. What do you think/know: Does the "theological" river starts with two rivers or a sea, as i said before?

Lutz wrote:
For example, the blue triangles appear in several Underworld books. However, they are nowhere identified or associated with the Nile-Delta. It is the transition region between heaven and the underworld, called for example in the Imydwat, "Wernes".


I thought wrns is not the delta-region, just a single place there, the "secret shore"?

Lutz wrote:
Harsomtis wrote:
... But here are no libaries - and i cannot find anything online Sad

And there is the document delivery service


I am not educated in any matter - i just passed school. So i have no access to universities, and yes, i am living rural near "nowhere" Smile But thanks for the link to the delivery service. I will check that. Thank you. But i am also still wondering, why all OLD books (Champollion post mortem, Piankoff) about the grave are not available online?!

Another question:
Lutz wrote:
The Books of Day and Night are pure theological compositions.


So the two books belongs together? So "The book (without s) of Day and night" would be a better name (and it is no good idea to refer just to one?)
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