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Neith in KV9: Book of the day (?)
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Lutz
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harsomtis wrote:
Lutz wrote:
No. The heavenly and the underworld river on which the sun god moves in his barque [...] flows from East to West during the day and at night from West to East. He is not orientated to the direction of the flow of the earthly Nile.

Is that the (official) interpretation or is it written on the wall?

It is the official interpretation, written in several ancient Egyptian books of the underworld and it is logic. I have no idea where the problem is for you and how you come to the idea that the river in the underworld could flow like the Nile from South to North, when the sun goes down in the West and raises in the East... And, by the way, the axis of KV 9 is not only ideally (by decoration and inscriptions) East - West oriented. The tomb chamber (and thus the head of the goddess) is located almost exactly in the geographic West.

Harsomtis wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Harsomtis wrote:
... So in my opinion the picture is a) astronomical (sun, stars, nut is the sky) b) geographic (two rivers or a sea in the south, then the Nile flowing to the North to the sea) c) theological (a lot of gods. ...

The Books of Day and Night are pure theological compositions. They do not reflect the earthly geographic.

hmmm... but they are at least inspired by earthly geographic (this river-culture thought, that there must be a big river also in the otherworld?) if so, the beginning of that "theological" river is likely influenced by their (idea of the) real river. What do you think/know: Does the "theological" river starts with two rivers or a sea, as i said before?...

Of course the theological conceptions of a nation are influenced and shaped by the surrounding reality. No one has disputed this and nothing shows this more than the journey of the sun god on a river in a boat. However, this can not be inferred that these otherworldly-divine world is an exact replica of our world.

Harsomtis wrote:
Lutz wrote:
For example, the blue triangles appear in several Underworld books. However, they are nowhere identified or associated with the Nile-Delta. It is the transition region between heaven and the underworld, called for example in the Imydwat, "Wernes".

I thought wrns is not the delta-region, just a single place there, the "secret shore"?

What does not change the fact that it is a region of water from the beginning / first hour of Imydwat, where it is explicitly mentioned as a transition region.

Harsomtis wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Harsomtis wrote:
... But here are no libaries - and i cannot find anything online Sad

And there is the document delivery service


I am not educated in any matter - i just passed school. So i have no access to universities, and yes, i am living rural near "nowhere" Smile...

You don`t have to, the public librarys have ... also in your country as I know from my study. And over one of them you can order nearly every book in Europe.

Harsomtis wrote:
Another question:
Lutz wrote:
The Books of Day and Night are pure theological compositions.

So the two books belongs together? So "The book (without s) of Day and night" would be a better name (and it is no good idea to refer just to one?)

No, not really (and I did not say that.). We know only two documents for the Book of the Day, both are in KV 9. There are some more for the Book of the Night, also outside the Valley of the Kings and a Royal Tomb (for example from the Osireion in Abydos). They are only in the burial chamber of KV 9 ingeniously attached to one another (which of course in terms of content is offered, but not is necessarily mandatory as the ceiling in corridor D shows).

Greetings, Lutz.
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Harsomtis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Harsomtis wrote:
Lutz wrote:
No. The heavenly and the underworld river on which the sun god moves in his barque [...] flows from East to West during the day and at night from West to East. He is not orientated to the direction of the flow of the earthly Nile.

Is that the (official) interpretation or is it written on the wall?

It is the official interpretation, written in several ancient Egyptian books of the underworld and it is logic.

Yes, it is logic. Thank you for your reply.

Harsomtis wrote:
Lutz wrote:
if so, the beginning of that "theological" river is likely influenced by their (idea of the) real river. What do you think/know: Does the "theological" river starts with two rivers or a sea, as i said before?...

Of course the theological conceptions of a nation are influenced and shaped by the surrounding reality. No one has disputed this and nothing shows this more than the journey of the sun god on a river in a boat. However, this can not be inferred that these otherworldly-divine world is an exact replica of our world.


As far as i know the Egyptians did not know where the Nile came from?! So maybe (!) their idea about the beginning of the Nile could be seen in a painting of another river, the heavenly and the underworld river? Or is that a stupid thought?

Lutz wrote:
Harsomtis wrote:
Lutz wrote:
For example, the blue triangles appear in several Underworld books. However, they are nowhere identified or associated with the Nile-Delta. It is the transition region between heaven and the underworld, called for example in the Imydwat, "Wernes".

I thought wrns is not the delta-region, just a single place there, the "secret shore"?

What does not change the fact that it is a region of water from the beginning / first hour of Imydwat, where it is explicitly mentioned as a transition region.


"transition region" - in my opinion a good phrase also for a delta, where also animals of the sea could be seen in the sweet water of the river...
(i dont know who said, that "wrns" should be read as "secret shore" - i would prefer your "transition region"...)


Lutz wrote:
Harsomtis wrote:
Another question:
Lutz wrote:
The Books of Day and Night are pure theological compositions.

So the two books belongs together? So "The book (without s) of Day and night" would be a better name (and it is no good idea to refer just to one?)

No, not really (and I did not say that.). We know only two documents for the Book of the Day, both are in KV 9. There are some more for the Book of the Night, also outside the Valley of the Kings and a Royal Tomb (for example from the Osireion in Abydos).


Yes, it is complete just in two documents and both are in KV9. But parts of it are also in KV6 and TT 132 and NRT I (if we are just talking about royal thombs).
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Lutz
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Joined: 02 Sep 2007
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Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harsomtis wrote:
As far as i know the Egyptians did not know where the Nile came from?! So maybe (!) their idea about the beginning of the Nile could be seen in a painting of another river, the heavenly and the underworld river? Or is that a stupid thought?

For the ancient Egyptians was the source of all waters (of both, in our and the other world) the primeval ocean "Nun".

Harsomtis wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Harsomtis wrote:
Another question:
Lutz wrote:
The Books of Day and Night are pure theological compositions.

So the two books belongs together? So "The book (without s) of Day and night" would be a better name (and it is no good idea to refer just to one?)

No, not really (and I did not say that.). We know only two documents for the Book of the Day, both are in KV 9. There are some more for the Book of the Night, also outside the Valley of the Kings and a Royal Tomb (for example from the Osireion in Abydos).

Yes, it is complete just in two documents and both are in KV9. But parts of it are also in KV6 and TT 132 and NRT I (if we are just talking about royal thombs).

Meant complete versions, sorry (there could possibly to find one more in TT 33). However, what does not change my answer to your question...

Greetings, Lutz.
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