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Pre-dynastic Kings.

 
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:47 am    Post subject: Pre-dynastic Kings. Reply with quote

Were there not Egyptian kings prior to that of Hsekiu and Khayu, which had the names of 'Fish' and other Nile animals? If so, can someone please submit me some information upon these kings e.g. approximate time period, findings of their name. I do remember a documentary about these particular kings. hmm.

Also could the kings of Upper Egypt
Hsekiu
Khayu
Tiu
Thesh
Neheb
Wazner
Mekh
Dju

have been a entirely different group (race)of that of the kings of Lower Egypt?

Scorpion I
Iry-Hor
Ka
King Scorpion
Narmer...

Just wondering.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Pre-dynastic Kings. Reply with quote

You're confusing something here, the first group you label with "kings of Upper Egypt" are kings from the Delta, so from Lower Egypt (known from the Palermo - Stone). For science-based information and further reading see FRANCESCO RAFFAELE : LATE PREDYNASTIC AND EARLY DYNASTIC EGYPT.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:47 am    Post subject: Re: Pre-dynastic Kings. Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:

have been a entirely different group (race)of that of the kings of Lower Egypt?


Sweet Osiris, will this damn racial stuff ever ends?
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: Pre-dynastic Kings. Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
You're confusing something here, the first group you label with "kings of Upper Egypt" are kings from the Delta, so from Lower Egypt (known from the Palermo - Stone). For science-based information and further reading see FRANCESCO RAFFAELE : LATE PREDYNASTIC AND EARLY DYNASTIC EGYPT.

Greetings, Lutz.


Oh yes, sorry I always get mixed up with that, thank you Lutz.
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:17 am    Post subject: Re: Pre-dynastic Kings. Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
Nefer-Ankhe wrote:

have been a entirely different group (race)of that of the kings of Lower Egypt?


Sweet Osiris, will this damn racial stuff ever ends?


? Ummm

That question isn't entirely racially focused, it's just an example of how they may have been differentiated from one and other. Sweet Osiris Rolling Eyes

I just noticed, whilst reading a book upon pre-dynastic Egypt, that there were minor, yet significant differences, between that of the archaeological evidence found at Upper Egypt and that found at Lower Egypt e.g. burials.

Oh and Puh-lease don't act as if race isn't significant to the study of ancient Egypt. If you think not, then you are filled with much ignorance. However this has little relevance to my question. I was just simply asking, if they could have been a different type of group of people entirely? Confused
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Pre-dynastic Kings. Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
... Oh and Puh-lease don't act as if race isn't significant to the study of ancient Egypt. If you think not, then you are filled with much ignorance. However this has little relevance to my question. I was just simply asking, if they could have been a different type of group of people entirely? Confused

There is no "race" in the population of Homo sapiens sapiens (modern human being). This term was inadmissible way from pseudo-scientists invented for ethnic groups, to justify the alleged superiority of one over the other. That's the problem.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Pre-dynastic Kings. Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:

Oh and Puh-lease don't act as if race isn't significant to the study of ancient Egypt. If you think not, then you are filled with much ignorance.


Of course it is important. Important for nowadays' racial agendas, whether Afrocentric or Eurocentric one. There's absolutely no importance for the comprehension of the Ancient Egyptian history at all if they were blonde, black or brown. They were like all of us. They were humans.
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: Pre-dynastic Kings. Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
Nefer-Ankhe wrote:

Oh and Puh-lease don't act as if race isn't significant to the study of ancient Egypt. If you think not, then you are filled with much ignorance.


Of course it is important. Important for nowadays' racial agendas, whether Afrocentric or Eurocentric one. There's absolutely no importance for the comprehension of the Ancient Egyptian history at all if they were blonde, black or brown. They were like all of us. They were humans.


I do believe the matter, is a little more in depth than what colour their hair was. Not only is it an interesting subject matter (which is very complex)
including and excluding Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics, it also indicates the origins of the ancient Egyptians, then the latter people who migrated into Egypt. Need I say more...?

However, I will repeat myself once more, my question was not racially focused,
I was simply wondering if there could have been two different groups of people, which could explain the minor yet significant differences.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Pre-dynastic Kings. Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
Robson wrote:
Nefer-Ankhe wrote:

Oh and Puh-lease don't act as if race isn't significant to the study of ancient Egypt. If you think not, then you are filled with much ignorance.


Of course it is important. Important for nowadays' racial agendas, whether Afrocentric or Eurocentric one. There's absolutely no importance for the comprehension of the Ancient Egyptian history at all if they were blonde, black or brown. They were like all of us. They were humans.


I do believe the matter, is a little more in depth than what colour their hair was. Not only is it an interesting subject matter (which is very complex)
including and excluding Afrocentrics and Eurocentrics, it also indicates the origins of the ancient Egyptians, then the latter people who migrated into Egypt. Need I say more...?

However, I will repeat myself once more, my question was not racially focused,
I was simply wondering if there could have been two different groups of people, which could explain the minor yet significant differences.


You are talking immigrated ethnic groups, not 'races'. "Race" is a social construct, which has its origins in 19th century thought, but biologically, as stated here, there is no "race" to the Egyptians beyond being members of the race of Homo sapiens, i.e., "human race."

Further, the concept of a "dynastic race" in ancient Egypt has also been rebutted over the years, despite earlier 19th and early 20th century attempts by some Egyptologists to claim that the ruling class was somehow a different ethnic group than the people within Egypt. This is no longer considered the case in Egyptology, although we are aware that some kings of Egypt claimed their ancestral homes in Libya and Nubia during the Late Period. the majority of earlier Egyptian kings were born and lived in Egypt through their whole lives, and their parentage appears to have been totally Egypt.

The fact is that people moved in and out of Egypt in large groups from the very beginning, even during predynastic times (on this, see Hoffmann 1979), and Egypt was also a major trade route as well, which meant that ethnic groups passed in and out of ancient Egypt during the pharaonic period. Hoffmann noted that ancient Egyptians were a mix of groups from the Asia Minor area (with religion traces from Anatolia, for example), the Tigris-Euphrates influences from those eastern regions, west from Libya, and south from Nubia and Sudan -- as well as indigenous peoples from the Nile Valley itself.

Ancient Egypt as a civilisation was thus made up of people who came from east, west, north and south of the country, as well as parts of the civilisation which was indigenous to the Nile Valley, which stretched from the Delta to the First Cataract near Elephantine (these being the traditional borders of Egypt throughout most of its history (Baines and Málek 1980: 31, 33, 41, 43, 44,49, 53 ).

Reference:

Baines, J. and J. Málek. 1980. Atlas of Ancient Egypt. Cairo: Les Livres de France.

For more on the ethnic migration of peoples in Egypt, from Predynastic until modern times, see

El-Batrawi, A. D., 1946. The Racial History of Egypt and Nubia, Part II: The Racial Relationships of the Ancient and Modern Populations of Egypt and Nubia. Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland 76: 131-56. [Noting the modern Egyptian population when compared to ancient population as a whole are the same population].

Borgognini-Tarli, S. M., and G. Paoli, 1982. Survey on Paleoserological studies. Homo 33(2), 69-85 (Serological studies of ancient and modern Egyptians indicating they are the same population).

Caubert, A., Ed. 1999. L'acrobate au taureau: Les découvertes de Tell el-Dab'a et l'archéologie de la Mediterranée orientale (1800 - 1400 av. J.-C.). Louvre conférences et colloques Paris: Musée du Louvre/La documentation Française.

Davies, W.V. and L. Schofield. 1995. Egypt, the Aegean and the Levant: Interconnections in the Second Millennium BC. London : British Museum Press.

Décobert, C. 2000. Valeur et distance : identités et sociétés en Egypte Paris: Maisonneuve et Larose/Maison méditerranéenne des sciences de l'homme.

Giveon, R. 1971. Les Bédouins Shosou: Des documents égyptiens. Documenta et Monumenta Orientis Antiqui. W. F. Albright and J. Vandier. Leiden: Brill.

Griffis-Greenberg, K. The Followers of Seth: Egyptian Perception of Foreigners as Reflected in Early Egyptian Textual References and Its Effect on Egyptian Culture. (forthcoming).

Hoffmann, M. 1979. Egypt Before the Pharaohs. New York: Knopf.

Keita, S. O. Y. 1996. The Diversity of Indigenous Africans. In Theodore Celenko, (ed.) Egypt in Africa: 103-104. Indianapolis Museum of Art: Indianapolis. (genetic studies)

Krings M, et al. 1999. mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration? American Journal of Human Genetics 64(4):1166-1176.

Manzo, A. 1999. Échanges et contacts le long du Nil et la Mer Rouge dans l'époque protohistorique. (IIIe et IIe millénaires avant J.-C.). BAR S782: Cambridge Monographs in African Archaeology. 48 J. Alexander Oxford: Archaeopress.

Maravelia, A-A. (ed). 2001. Ancient Egypt and Antique Europe: Two Parts of the Mediterranean world. Papers from a session held at the European Association of Archaeologists Seventh Annual Meeting in Esslingen. BAR International Series 1052 . Oxford: Archaeopress.

Mark. S. 1998. From Egypt to Mesopotamia: A Study of Predynastic Trade Routes. Studies in Nautical Archaeology 4. London: Chatham Publishers.

Midant-Reynes, B. The Prehistory of Egypt: From the First Egypt to the First Pharaohs. 1999. (Ian Shaw, Transl.) London: Blackwells.

O'Connor, D. 1993. Ancient Nubia: Egypt's Rival in Africa. Philadelphia: University Museum/ Univ. of Pennsylvania.

__________. 1971. Ancient Egypt and Black African -- Early Contact.Expedition, the Magazine of Archaeology/Anthropology 14 (1):2.

Redford, D. B. 1992. Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times. Princeton: Princeton University Press.

Snowden, F. M. 1996. The Physical Characteristics of Egyptians and Their Southern Neighbors: the Classical Evidence. In T. Celenko, ed., Egypt in Africa: 106-108. Indianapolis: Indianapolis Museum of Art.

_________. 1991. Before Color Prejudice: The Ancient View of Blacks.Cambridge: Harvard Univ Press.

_________. 1990. Romans and Blacks: A Review Essay. American Journal of Philology 3 (4).

_________. 1989. Bernal's Blacks: Herodotus and other Classical Evidence. Arethusa (Special Fall Issue): 83-95.

Valbelle, D. 1990. Les Neuf Arcs: L'Égyptien et les Étrangers de la Prehistoire à la Conquête d'Alexandre. Paris: Armand Colin.
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Oriental Studies
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wrong wording 'ethnic groups' then...

Thank you Neseret, interesting and helpful read, that does clarify are lot.
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