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What happened to Akhenaten and Neferteti?
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:23 pm    Post subject: What happened to Akhenaten and Neferteti? Reply with quote

What happened to Akhenaten and Neferteti? What would have happened to their remains? Seeming that we don't have either have their remains!!! Is there a chance we will still find either of their remains still?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:20 pm    Post subject: Re: What happened to Akhenaten and Neferteti? Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
What happened to Akhenaten and Neferteti?


One even bet at the moment is that they have died. Wink

There is no Egyptian record that tells us this, except for a broken funereal shabti of Nefertiti that names her and her titles. However, as shabtis are often made years before one died, we cannot say for a fact that this shabti was used in her funeral. We have no mention of Nefertiti after year 12, and to many, this has been interpreted that perhaps she died in year 12.

We have no indication when Akhenaten died, but his regnal years ended in Year 17. We do have better indication if his death, however, due to remains of his funereal equipment in the Royal Tomb at Amarna, including some 200+ shabtis (Martin 1974: Plates 26-48 ). In neither case do we know when exactly either one died, or of what.

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
What would have happened to their remains?


That is, as they say, the $64,000 question: we don't know. No remains of the two were found (either at Amarna or elsewhere), although Akhenaten's demolished canopic case, apparently used, was found in the Royal Tomb at Amarna.

Daressy (1891), reported in Sayce (1923: 282), noted that outside of the Royal Tomb at Amarna a burned body was found, but it was only speculated that this was one of the Amarna royals.* The general consensus of many Egyptologists is that Akhenaten's body was likely destroyed during the damnatio memoriae period, when all things and people connected with Akhenaten's reign was systematically destroyed (the reigns of Horemheb through the early Ramessid period).

Other Egyptologists hold that the deceased Amarna royals were moved to the Valley of the Kings and that Akhenaten should be identified with KV 55. However, the youthful age of these remains at death (no more than 25 years old (Smith 1912, Derry 1931, Harrison 1966, Filer 2000)) tends to discount that identification. The so-called "re-aging" of the KV 55 remains to a later age is very speculative, as it only relies upon the deterioration of the spine of KV 55 (Hawass, Gad, et al 2010), which - as many anthropologists and forensics experts have noted - is not a great indicator of age, as even children can have similar deterioration of the spine due to stress on the spine during life, as found (for example) in ancient Nubian child remains.

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
Seeming that we don't have either have their remains!!! Is there a chance we will still find either of their remains still?


All things are possible, I suppose, although I actually have problems believing the Amarna royals bodies still remain.

The desecration of the KV 55 remains in antiquity (Bell 1990) tends to make me think that with as much excavation of new tombs from the late 18th Dynasty onwards, and stripping wealth from older tombs during the Late Period, a chance find of the reinterred Amarna royal remains would likely have been removed and destroyed during one of these periods in antiquity.

We know that the story of the "heretic" king who does wrong to his people, culminating in disease and dishonour to the land, remains in the Egyptian collective memory until the Ptolemaic period (See, on this, Manetho's "Story of Orus" (via Josephus), which is not claimed as history but a folklore tale (Verbrrugghe and Wickersham 1996; Redford 1986)), and the implication of the story is one of horror and revulsion for said king. If such feelings existed as late as the Ptolemaic period, I should think that anything that was related to him would have been sought out and destroyed long ago.

OTOH, there are Egyptologists who believe that the Amarna royal tombs can still be found in the Valley of the King, most notably Nicholas Reeves and his Amarna Royal Tombs Project. However, as far as I know, no work has been performed in Egypt with this project since (I believe) 2002.

* In fact, in a later publication, Sayce categorically states these burned remains outside the Royal Tomb at Amarna were those of Akhenaten, and categorically denied that the KV 55 remains were to be identified as Akhenaten (See, on this, Martin 1974: 37, n. 1).

Reference:

Bell, M. R. 1990. An Armchair Excavation of KV 55. JARCE 27: 97-137.

Derry, D. E. 1931. Notes on the Skeleton hitherto believed to be that of King Akhenaten. ASAE 31: 115-9.

Filer, J. 2000. The KV 55 body: the facts. Egyptian Archaeology 17/Autumn: 13-4.

Harrison, R. G. 1966. An Anatomical Examination of the Pharaonic Remains Purported to be Akhenaten. JEA 52: 95-119.

Hawass, Z., et al. 2010. Ancestry and Pathology in King Tutankhamun’s Family. Journal of the American medical Association 303/7: 638-47.

Martin, G. T. 1974. The Rock Tombs of El-'Amarna. Part VII. The Royal Tomb at El-'Amarna. The Objects. (Vol. I). Archaeological Survey of Egypt. 35th Memoir. London: Egypt Exploration Society.

Redford, D. B. 1986. Pharaonic King-lists, Annals and Day-books: A Contribution to the Study of the Egyptian Sense of History. SSEA Publication IV. Mississauga: Benben Publications.

Sayce, A. H. 1923. Reminiscences. London.

Smith, G. E. 2000 (1912). Catalogue Général de Antiquités Égyptiennes du Musée du Caire. No. 60151-61100. The Royal Mummies. Service des Antiquités de L'Égypte: Catalogue Général de Antiquités Égyptiennes du Musée du Caire. London: Duckworth.

Verbrugghe, G. P. and J. M. Wickersham. 1996. Berossos and Manetho: Introduced and Translated. Native Traditions in Ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press.

HTH.
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent response neseret, all of which leaves me with one real question!? Where is this burnt corpse? Is it still around today? I for one never knew there was a burnt corpse found near the Amarna tombs.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little note ...
neseret wrote:
"... We have no mention of Nefertiti after year 12, ...

We have one now for year 16, from a quarry next to Amarna (Dayr Abu Hinnis). See Athena Van der Perre : Nefertiti's last documented reference [for now]. - In: In the Light of Amarna - 100 Years of the Nefertiti Discovery. - Berlin: Staatliche Museen zu Berlin - Ägyptisches Museum und Papyrus Sammlung, 2012. - pp. 195 - 197.

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
... Where is this burnt corpse? Is it still around today? I for one never knew there was a burnt corpse found near the Amarna tombs.

Geoffrey Thorndike Martin : The Royal Tomb at El-'Amarna I - The Objects. - [The Rock Tombs of El-'Amarna Part VII.I]. - London : Egypt Exploration Society, 1974. - XX + 123 p., 2 plans, 7 fig., 63 pl. [2 folding] containing a map, 4 plans, drawings and numerous ill.

On pages 36 - 37 ...


And its foot-notes ...



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found further remarks in Geoffrey Thorndike Martin : The Royal Tomb at El-'Amarna II - The Reliefs, Inscriptions, and Architecture. - [The Rock Tombs of El-'Amarna Part VII.II]. - London : Egypt Exploration Society, 1989. See foot-note 6 from page 1:



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
A little note ...
neseret wrote:
"... We have no mention of Nefertiti after year 12, ...

We have one now for year 16, from a quarry next to Amarna (Dayr Abu Hinnis). See Athena Van der Perre : Nefertiti's last documented reference [for now]. - In: In the Light of Amarna - 100 Years of the Nefertiti Discovery. - Berlin: Staatliche Museen zu Berlin - Ägyptisches Museum und Papyrus Sammlung, 2012. - pp. 195 - 197.

Arrow New light on the life of Nefertiti

Aset
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it's seems conclusive that Akhenaten meet a unfavorable fate, however does that necessarily mean that Neferteti, would have been subjected to a similar or the same fate?

Thank you, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

does the context of the inscription mentioning nefertiti in year 16 prove she was alive though? there are many times deceased people are mentioned int exts, and i did readf the inscription was badly damaged.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a dated inscription (red ochre, hieratic) on a column in the Amarna age quarry near the village of Dayr Abu Hinnis, on the eastern bank of the Nile, about 10 km north of Amarna.

The inscription is dated to the 15th Day of the Third Month of the Flood Season in Year 16 in the reign of Akhenaten. It provides also as content a few details about a building project for which obviously here the stones were broken (not full published until today, as far as I know).

The third line of the inscription begins with "The Great Royal Wife, his beloved, Lady of the Two Lands, Nefertiti Neferneferuaton". The reading is apparently unique. No evidence of a "posthumous" mention of the Queen (in such a context also not really to expect). First announcement and discussion of the inscription was in 2011 during the Flemish-Dutch-Egyptologists-Day held in Leiden (Christian Bayer provided the source Loeben).

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does that mean Neferteti lived longer than Akhenaten? Because that's what I had always thought. aha
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
Does that mean Neferteti lived longer than Akhenaten? ...

Why should it mean that? It just means that she is not "gone" in year 12, neither died nor was disgraced or changed her name (the three most common theories in Egyptology). What in year 16 and 17 (and later) still happened to her remains still unknown...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes ok, I will shorten my question then. Did Neferteti live longer than Akhenaten, do we know?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
... Did Neferteti live longer than Akhenaten, do we know?

No, we do not know.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How true is what is being said, in this you tube video about Akhenaten?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grJQN0VxQzs
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
How true is what is being said, in this you tube video about Akhenaten?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grJQN0VxQzs

Please be more specific. Which statements accurately?

Greetings, Lutz.
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