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What happened to Akhenaten and Neferteti?
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That he was the only child never depicted, at that he was a "reject" or "unusual" child (what they commonly referred to him as)... never going to festivals etc? How true is this?
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Furthermore to add... Apparently he was detached from the world, not understanding what his people wanted and letting Egypt run into foreign trouble, without doing anything about? Apparently the Aten only adorned Akhenaten and his royal family, and never the citizens, which angered them (I do not see how that is different to any other god or goddess previous to Akhenaten?

Apparently he was pushed back into the background during his childhood? and to conclude he suffered (emotionally I'm assuming) as a child, being rejected and left in the background?

How true are these statements continuously made throughout the documentary?
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Robson
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no sign of any popular sublevation or riots against the rulers in Egypt until a couple of years ago. There were only palatian coups of interpartidary fights within the ruling elite. The Hollywoodesque image of "the people in revolt" against the "Oriental despot" is quite modern and totally fantasistic when applied to societies of the Antiquity.

In the 18th Dinasty none of the princes were depicted alongside their royal parents, as happened with the Ramessides. Was not because of Akhenaten suposedly unusual features (once it repeatedly happened in former reigns), but maybe as an interpretation of the myth of the concealing of Horus.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nefer-Ankhe wrote:
That he was the only child never depicted, at that he was a "reject" or "unusual" child (what they commonly referred to him as)... never going to festivals etc? How true is this?

There is actually no representation of Prince Amenhotep, his name and title is obtained only on a wine jar seal from Malquatta. But also from his older brother we have only one picture together with his father on a relief in Berlin (a loan from the Egyptian Museum in Munich), doing an offering in Memphis. Prince Thutmosis was First Prophet of Ptah in Memphis and Head of the First Prophets of the Temples of Egypt. So he held important positions in the state and was thus in the "public". Thutmosis was obviously a few years older than his brother Amenhotep (Akhenaten). The offices he has held were to important to give them only in honor. Specifically, the Head of the First Prophets is probably clearly to be interpreted with certainty as a counterweight to the priesthood of Amun at Karnak under Amenhotep III.

However, this is for the 18th Dynasty quite common. The known representations of sons of Amenhotep II and Thutmose IV, probably come from the tombs of their nurses / tutors. A tomb for the tutor of the sons of Amenhotep III is not known / found hitherto.

To construct conclusions and storys as Mr. Brier it does is simply absurd and frivolous. It is bordered on demagoguery, in my view. This man is known to like themselves listen to and he has no problem with unproveable speculation and false statements as long it brings money. I just remember in this connection at his ghastly sorry effort on the alleged murder of Tutankhamen...

Greetings, Lutz.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz,

Do you know if this depiction also belongs to prince Thutmose?
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Nefer-Ankhe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, I thought it was rather dramatized.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
Lutz, Do you know if this depiction also belongs to prince Thutmose?

The cartouche "Men-Maat-Ra", the throne name of Seti I, speaks clearly against it. The figure shows not a Sem-priest, it is Iunmutef (first inscription columne, if not my limited knowledge of hieroglyphics completely leave me...). The original I guess in his temple at Abydos or in KV 17.

The objects which can be assigned to the son of Amenhotep III are really very manageable. In addition to the Munich relief Berlin owns and shows two more pieces, probably from his tomb equipment: the Prince on the lion bier and the to the bier belonging miniature coffin (both objects you can see also on the linked picture). Furthermore, there is in the Cairo Museum the famous sarcophagus of his cat. Neseret has a longer article on this object somewhere on the net. That's it.

Greetings, Lutz.
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Aset
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
...Furthermore, there is in the Cairo Museum the famous sarcophagus of his cat. Neseret has a longer article on this object somewhere on the net...

Arrow The Coffin of The She-Cat of Crown Prince Thutmose ("Thutmose V")
Cairo CG 5003

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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
Lutz, Do you know if this depiction also belongs to prince Thutmose?

Here are some pictures from KV 17 - Sety I (Theban Mapping Project). I would say these could be the originals that stood "model" for your picture?

Opening of the Mouth ritual: Sety I seated at offering table and Iwnmutef priests, with loss of part of figure of king.

Opening of the Mouth ritual: Iwnmutef priest reciting.

Opening of the Mouth ritual: Iwnmutef priest addressing Sety I.

Greetings, Lutz.
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neseret
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
To construct conclusions and storys as Mr. Brier it does is simply absurd and frivolous. It is bordered on demagoguery, in my view. This man is known to like themselves listen to and he has no problem with unproveable speculation and false statements as long it brings money. I just remember in this connection at his ghastly sorry effort on the alleged murder of Tutankhamen...


Just an aside: I recall an ARCE meeting in the 90's which I attended (At Brown University, I think) when Brier's book was the "talk of the town" in terms of sales. Someone had placed Brier's flyer for his book "The Murder of Tutankhamun, by Bob Brier" prominently in the hall.

Under that flyer, some wag had placed an identical flyer, photoshopped, which read "The Murder of Bob Brier, by Tutankhamun."
That pretty much gave everyone at the conference a giggle, and definitely told me the professional opinion of that book. Wink
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooh I wish I can say but im forbidden to speak of it on this forum. In respectss of this forum and everyone else my lips are sealed im just playing along
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