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Tut's Chariot Theory
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Tut's Chariot Theory Reply with quote

Even though it can sort of be ruled that Tut got in a bad chariot accident i wouldn't quite say that his chariot accident was an accident. What if it could have been engineered, or other-words planned.

I think people are forgetting that Tut was already a sickly boy, why would a ill person be left alone to drive a chariot. Someone had to had been there with him to witness this.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Tut's Chariot Theory Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
Even though it can sort of be ruled that Tut got in a bad chariot accident i wouldn't quite say that his chariot accident was an accident. What if it could have been engineered, or other-words planned.

I think people are forgetting that Tut was already a sickly boy, why would a ill person be left alone to drive a chariot. Someone had to had been there with him to witness this.


As far as I know, there's no real evidence Tutankhamun was a "sickly" person - the malaria theory has since been disproven, and there are varying opinions (but no proof) that speculated bone necrosis took place before Tutankhamun's eventual death.

There are a number of representations of Tutankhamun driving/riding a chariot - the Painted Box Casket (Carter 021), the ostrich fan (Carter 242), as well as 6 complete chariots and over 100 items related to these chariots. So, there's little doubt, since the chariots show indications of everyday wear and tear, that Tutankhamun considered himself a sportsman and an experienced chariot driver.

Chariot driving is not without its dangers, so finding over 100 walking sticks - many used with continued wear and tear - may indicate that like modern young men, Tutankhamun had a real love of the chariot as a sport, as well as his share of accidents and injuries related to the chariot. But, it is the crushed chest, cut ribs, bone gangrene in his broken knee and shattered legs and feet that tell us that one day the chariot got away from even this most experienced driver.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention the large missing part of the left pelvis - which was presumably shattered and the pieces removed by the embalmers, maybe via the nearby abdominal incision.

Clearly there were not many possibilities back then for a king to get himself into such a mess. Damage of this extent could not have been caused by malaria, any genetic defect, a fall on the ground or even down some stairs.
As I see it a chariot accident was about the only way to account for the state of the mummy.
Harer`s proposed theory of a fatal hippo bite disregards all the physical damage that occurred beyond the chest injury and therefore isn`t a likely scenario IMO.
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

now that you've explained it clear to me i understand sothis thanks.


(sighs) there is so many things about Tut that even i don't know about. I guess many can say that the mystery of King Tut's death is solved, but the stories before and after still remains.

Its not over by a long shot.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Tut's Chariot Theory Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
Even though it can sort of be ruled that Tut got in a bad chariot accident i wouldn't quite say that his chariot accident was an accident. What if it could have been engineered, or other-words planned.

I think people are forgetting that Tut was already a sickly boy, why would a ill person be left alone to drive a chariot. Someone had to had been there with him to witness this.


Years of experience as an equestrian tells me that this chariot scenario is very realistic and also that it was most likely an accident. He could have been racing or hunting in a pack with other drivers. A horse falls, the driver is thrown, another driver riding behind him can't swerve in time. It happens at the races all the time. 800 pounds of equine bone and muscle can pulverize a human pelvis.

I doubt it was deliberate, unless of course he was at war. To cause this sort of accident you'd either have to sabatoge the chariot or drug the horses. Neither scenario is guaranteed to kill the intended target. It's a lousy method of assassination. You could end up with a pharoah with a bruised ego and a burning desire for revenge.

As for a the idea that a young king with a bad leg would never drive a chariot, that just flies in the nature of young men, especially aristocratic young men. Tut grew up around horses and was fully aware of the athletic traditions of his ancestors. I would think that if he had a disability, driving would be a way that he could prove his manhood by excelling in what had to be the coolest extreme sport around, and, not incidently, prepare himself to become the warrior king he was expected, and no doubt wanted to be.

Besides, who was going to tell a 19 year old absolute monarch who believes himself to be a god that he can't drive?
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Vangu Vegro
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, I must admit I don't know the finer details of this theory, but what does it say about the reason half Tut's ribcage and its contents disappeared/were removed?

Unless the theory provides a very good explanation for these phenomena I'm gonna have to remain skeptical and give the advantage to Benson Harer's hippo bite scenario.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neseret, when was the malaria theory disproven? What about the bone gangrene theory? I really have to get back into the Armana Tarpits more, I am missing too much info
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

herper wrote:
... when was the malaria theory disproven? ...

It is known that a gene mutation, common in North Africa, can cause a decade-long immunity of the red blood cells to the malaria parasite. The DNA of the parasite was also found in the mummy of Yuya, but he died probably obvious with over 60... If I remember correctly was on this basis suggested, that Yuya (and after him also Tutankhamun) could have shown that immunity.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TV Write-up: Secret History – Tutankhamun, The Mystery of the Burnt Mummy by Andrea Byrnes. Published on Egyptological, 10th November 2013.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those who didn't see the episode, it's on 4OD now, or is repeated on CH 4 1:10am Friday 22nd November
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A new article by S. Ikram and F.J. Rühli : Purported medical diagnoses of PharaohTutankhamun, c. 1325 BC-. - In: HOMO - Journal of Comparative Human Biology, 2013. - Available online: 25 October 2013. - 13 p.:
Quote:
"King Tutankhamun is one of the most famous rulers of antiquity, thus it is not surprising that a plethora of scientific studies have put forth possible medical diagnoses and causes of his death. Diseases (autologous or infectious), metabolic disorders, trauma (possibly even murder-related), or tumorous conditions have been postulated, frequently only based on secondary data sources. The aim of this article is to critically review all these diagnoses. Since the initial examination of the mummy in the mid 1920s by Howard Carter and others, several dozens of medical diagnoses based on various levels of evidence have been proposed. While some studies did not support any sign of a major disease, others suggested diseases whose existence cannot be proven with the little tissue that is preserved for study. In the last c. five years new examinations of the mummy were performed by computed tomography and ancient DNA analyses, now allowing not only to exclude certain diagnoses that had been postulated earlier, but also to arrive at new theories with a higher degree of certainty concerning the state of health and the early death of this most famous ruler."

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw this documentary, and while the self-combustion of his resin soaked wrappings seems a very plausible explanation for the charred state of his mummy, I am less convinced about the charriot theory of his death. To be more precise, the scenario of Tutankhamun in a kneeling position facing a charriot, while not beyond the bounds of possibility, simply looks wrong to me. Also I am doubtfull that the rather light chariots used by the Egyptians would, even at speed, have enough energy on impact to cause that amount of damage. They state in the documentary that the impact damaged his heart so much that it could not be put back in his body before wrapping. This sounds complete nonsense to me. The heart is a substantial chunk of muscle, and to be damaged to the extent they say would, IMO, need an impact similar to that which happens in modern aouto accidents, and even then, something would remain of the heart, if not consumed in fire. It just is not feasable that given the importance AE attached to the heart, something was not salvable. I rather suspect that when found by Carter, Tutankhamun's heart was still in his chest cavity, and has since dissapeared. As to how he died, well, who knows...
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well said
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
... I am less convinced about the charriot theory of his death. To be more precise, the scenario of Tutankhamun in a kneeling position facing a charriot, while not beyond the bounds of possibility, simply looks wrong to me. Also I am doubtfull that the rather light chariots used by the Egyptians would, even at speed, have enough energy on impact to cause that amount of damage. ...

The probability that the Pharaoh was completely alone in a chariot in the nowhere on the road is still rather low. So it may well be that one of the accompanying car, after the accident of the king, could have given these driving?

A few kilometers south of Malqatta, the palace of Amenhotep III at Thebes West, is a building complex with name Kom el-Abd. This is a kind of military base with attached car racing track in the desert. The floor plan of the obtained main building allows for a reconstruction of a viewing deck for the observation of chariot races on the roof...

Barry J. Kemp : A Building of Amenophis III at Kôm el-'Abd. - In: JEA 63. - 1977. - pp. 71 - 82

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is one element of the theory put forward that does seem correct to me, and that is that if Tutankhamun had fallen from his chariot, then it is likely that he would have had head, shoulder and arm injuries, and there are none. We don't know what they would have worn driving a chariot not in combat, the temple inscriptions are not a reliable description of normal use, so we don't know if they wore any protection, padded helmet or such. But that is perhaps modern thinking....
There is a possibility that he was kicked by a horse, perhaps more than once in any presumed accident. But the state of his remains make it so difficult to make any strong conclusion. It would be rather tragic if he befell the same fate that may, or may not, have claimed his mother's life.
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