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Appalling and cynical vandalism in GP
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Ikon
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:39 am    Post subject: Appalling and cynical vandalism in GP Reply with quote

Two German students have scraped paint from the cartouche of Khufu in the Great Pyramid. This criminal vandalism is, apparently, to "proove" by carbon dating, that the GP is much older than thought. The usual moronic alternative nonsense of course, and seems to be used by one of the alternative blockheads to say that GP is 20 000 years old. He of course has a book coming out shortly dealing with this cynical garbage. Seems no end to this lunacy, and now they become so arrogant as to take advantage of the grim situation in Egypt to perform criminal acts to support their cynical money making nonsense.

Links to two articles, one in English and one in German, amd a link to their unlisted youtube video showing their crime. They are both now on an airport watch list and will be arrested if they ever try to enter Egypt again. Seems Egyptian government may wish to extradite them as well, hopefully with success...
http://youtu.be/a-8E8hShPbI
http://www.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/two-german-students-have-vandalised-part-of-the-pyramid-of-khufu-to-help-prove-their-lost-civilisation-theory/story-e6frfqc0-1226771863820
http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/cheops-pyramide-deutsche-hobbyforscher-kratzen-proben-von-der-decke-a-934939.html
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nutjobs strike again. Hope Egypt gets them back and despenses some old kingdom justice
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure if it is possible but perhaps the German authorities could also take a hand in this.

It must surely be easier to apprehend these two so called "students" in Germany and hold them so that Egypt can serve a warrant for their arrest and extradition,as they are alleged to have committed offenses against
international law and UNESCO conventions. Though off hand I cannot say whether such offenses are extraditable.

As I'm no expert in German law that's all just something I hope might happen. I'm sure that Lutz may be in a better position to clarify what can or cannot be done.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be interesting to know how they got a ladder inside without being seen, unless ladder was already inside for general use, changing lightbulbs etc. I notice some device on the chamber wall, perhaps cctv, if so, was nobody watching? Would also be interesting to know when this occured, for instance, when this year's problems were at their worst, was Giza left unguarded for a while? or was there some bribery or trickery. Anyway, if they want to C14 these fragments to "proove" 20 000 year old GP, then they are not so clever as I think the cartouche is painted ochre, which is iron oxide and so cannot be dated. This entire episode stinks of many things, one of them being a hoax to raise publicity for any book or video, and there is already an admission of a forthcoming book, though not from these two clowns, but who knows what happens under the surface.....
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are as always very different and partly contradictory reports in the Egyptian media. Here a short summary as I understand the situation:

A self proclaimed "experimental archaeologist" (Dominique Görlitz) and an "author" of conspiracy theory books (Stefan Erdmann, in the main job managing a nursing home for retired people) and a third person I do not know something about, have done this in April 2013.

They have booked over a travel agency private visits for the 17.04.2013, from 10.00 to 12.00 in the so called "Tomb of the Byrds" (a system of natural caves on Giza plateu) and from 18.00 to 20.00 on the same day in the pyramid of Chufu. So, the visits were (for money) allowed by the SCA and are usually performed accompanied by an inspector of the Antiquities Service. Not included in the permission from the SCA was taking pictures or material samples. Whether the Egyptian inspector simply violated his duty or was been bribed, I can not say. Both appear to me possible from my own experiences ...

The following comment from me: I was during the time of Mubarak / Hawass in the distance of one year, two times for about 1 hour completely alone in the Great Pyramid (on normal visitor ticket). The video surveillance was more than obviously not in operation:



As can be clearly seen in the photo there is a ladder for getting into the relief chambers unsecured ready on top end of the Great Gallery. If I had wanted and had left for safety still a few 100,- pounds at the entrance ...

The samples were brought to Germany and passed to the Institute Fresenius in Dresden for analysis. By statement of the institute they are still there and are available on demand instead of the German legal profession or the competent Egyptian authorities. Moreover, a C14 - analysis was due to the small amount not possible (in this cases not the color pigment is dated, but the organic binder). Neither the Institute nor any other institution in Germany knew modest or was involved, the two negotiated privately.

To my knowledge, there are between Germany and Egypt no legal assistance or extradition agreements. The involvement of Interpol is Egypt freely, however. According to my information, the Egyptian authorities want now take action against the travel agency. This seems possible, since this company in Egypt is indeed economically active.

The German Embassy in Cairo and the German Archaeological Institute in Cairo condemned the action and distanced themselves.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for this interesting new information Lutz. That you have mentioned there was a third person, so far unknown, and that they also visited the "Tomb of Birds", raises some possibilities about what has happened, and who else may be involved.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
... That you have mentioned there was a third person, so far unknown, ...

So far unknown means, the name does not appear in the press reports. This can have different reasons I think. Should he / she (?) be also German citizen the Egyptian authorities know the name in any case: from the landing card for issued visas (yes they really store them, I know from my own experience as once my passport was stolen in Cairo) or from the special permission from the SCA (they can only be issued by name, also via travel agents).

Ikon wrote:
... that they also visited the "Tomb of Birds", raises some possibilities about what has happened, and who else may be involved.

How far? I do not really understand ...

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking of Andrew Collins who has some fringe theories about Giza and in particular NC35, the "Tomb of the Birds". He did some damage and has, I believe, been banned from entering Egypt for life. So as soon as you mentioned that there was a third person and that they also visited NC35, I thought it maybe something to do with Collins. I do not say he was the third person, only that perhaps because of his theories, there is some connection.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
... Andrew Collins ... because of his theories, there is some connection.

The theories move probably on the same level ... Here is what the German Wikipedia says about Stefan Erdmann:
Translation with Google wrote:
"... Erdmann mixed theses by Erich von Däniken, the Masonic conspiracy by the Illuminati and the Ark of the Covenant. In addition what Däniken believes that aliens are the first bearer of culture and in addition to knowledge and buildings had left, Erdmann also mentions the names of the possible "gods" who had once visited the earth. So should according to his sources Atlanteans and Annunaki the main aliens be who have intervened in the affairs of the world. In addition, Erdmann represents the thesis that biblical figures of David , Solomon and Jesus , were Pharaohs and the authors of the Bible have specially engineered stories to give their writings the matching. To this end, he himself says in his biography:

"... It is scientifically proven today that the great kingdoms of David and Solomon, as described in the Bible, has probably never existed, if at all, these were insignificant to suburbs. Similarly, it has never been an "Exodus from Egypt". The role models for David and Solomon were probably the Egyptian Pharaohs Tuthmosis III. and Amenhotep III."

However, he doubts not the existence of Jesus, but only at its history. And in this connection he also refers to a prohibition of origin analysis of the Pharaoh Tutankhamun. ..."

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Egypt Independent : Six officials punished for theft of archaeological site :
Quote:
An official source at the Ministry of State for Antiquities said a decision was issued yesterday transferring six officials responsible for the pyramids area in Giza after a German archaeologist reportedly stole samples from several sites in the region.
The source told MENA Thursday that Mohamed Ibrahim, Minister of State for Antiquities transferred the officials, one of which was the general manager of the region, to the Department of Archaeological Documentation in light of the incident. He noted that it was still under investigation by the public prosecutor.

German archaeologists stole samples from three important archaeological areas in the pyramids, including the burial chamber of King Cheops in the Great Pyramid, the five rooms above the burial chamber of the King, and the tomb of the birds located west of the Great Pyramid.

Edited translation from Al-Masry Al-Youm : Thu, 05/12/2013 - 19:09.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ecesr [Egypt’s Heritage Task Force] legal unit has filed a report with the Public Prosecution office against all of “Minister of Antiquities , Head of the Egyptian Antiquities , Secretary General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities , Manager for Pyramid archaeological sites , Interior minister , Head of the Tourist and Antiquities Police and Sheriff of Pyramid Area Police Station" for their negligence to provide the needed protection to one of Egypt’s most important archaeological sites.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for these additional links Lutz. It seems from this, if I have read it correctly, that Hawass's old job will be vacant as a result.....
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ikon wrote:
... It seems from this, if I have read it correctly, that Hawass's old job will be vacant as a result.....

Why? There is a Minister of State for Antiquities (Dr. Mohamed Ibrahim) and also a Secretary General (Dr. Mostafa Amin)...

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The affair continues to beat waves. Meanwhile, the Indiana-Jones-for-the-poor, also known as Zahi Hawass, has his idiocy (and again media presence) contributed ...

THE MADNESS OF ‘KING’ ZAHI HAWASS

ZAHI HAWASS UNMASKED AS A DANGEROUS LIAR

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is now an regard to the opinion and description of the events by the two Germans. It is in the form of a letter to Robert Bauval :

Quote:
Sehr geehrter Herr Bauval,

wie bereits mit Ihnen erläutert übersenden wir Ihnen hiermit eine Erklärung über unsere Forschungsprojekt innerhalb der Cheopspyramide.

Zunächst wollen wir Ihnen dafür danken, dass Sie uns dabei behilflich sind, die aktuelle Situation auf eine friedliche Art und Weise zu lösen.

Lassen Sie mich gleich zu Beginn nochmals betonen, dass wir unsere Aktivität nicht in der Absicht geplant haben, das ägyptische Erbe zu beschädigen. Aus diesem Grund wollen wir auch dafür um Verzeihung bitten, dass so viele Ägypter verärgert über uns sind. Somit ist es uns mit der folgenden Erklärung auch ein Anliegen, unsere Absichten, die Umsetzung und Ziele sorgfältig zu erklären, um damit hoffentlich die Kontroverse beruhigen zu können.

Ich selbst (Dominique Görlitz), bin ein Schüler von Thor Heyerdahl, Mitglied der Europäischen Gesellschaft für Experimental-Archäologie sowie des Explorers Club New York und zudem Wissenschaftler mit internationalen wissenschaftlichen Verbindungen. Ich würde niemals das kulturelle Erbe der ägyptischen Nation beschädigen. Bitte akzeptieren Sie deshalb auch meine Entschuldigung und meine Bitte um Verständnis.

Wie ich bereits gegenüber Dr. Osman und dem ehrenwerten Minister der ägyptischen Altertumsverwaltung Ibrahim erläutert habe, sind die anhand der Proben gewonnen Daten sehr interessant und werden neue Beweise für die Erforschung der 4. Dynastie erbringen.

Wir wollen nochmals unterstreichen, dass wir es bislang unterlassen haben, diese wissenschaftlichen Ergebnisse zu veröffentlichen, da es für uns von besonderer Wichtigkeit ist, eine vertrauliche Beziehung mit Ihnen aufzubauen. Diese Daten müssen von Wissenschaftlern diskutiert, sorgfältig erläutert und eingeordnet, statt von den Medien und anderen Feindseligkeiten zerrissen zu werden.

Aus diesem Grund ist uns die Kommunikation mit Ihnen (Bauval) als auch mit Dr. Osman besonders wichtig und wir sind Ihnen sehr dankbar dafür, dass Sie uns dabei helfen wollen, unseren wissenschaftlichen Anspruch zu sichern und die Möglichkeit eines diplomatischen Dialogs voranzutreiben.

Vor diesem Hintergrund sollten Sie auch wissen, dass wir täglich von einer großen Anzahl internationaler Medienanfragen kontaktiert werden, die in dieser Sache berichten wollen. Dennoch stehen wir fest zu unserem Versprechen, das wir auch schon Dr. Osman und dem Minister geben haben: Wir werden keine Informationen vorab an die falschen Personen weitergeben. Somit hoffen wir im Sinne der Wissenschaft und für die ägyptische Kultur auf weiteren Austausch.

Wie bereits zuvor erläutert, möchte ich folgende Punkte klarstellen

1. Wir hatten die Erlaubnis, die Pyramide zu betreten.

2. Wir hatten vorab nicht geplant, die obere Entlastungskammer zu betreten. Dies ergab sich eher zufällig, da sich unsere Untersuchungsmethoden vor Ort geändert hatten (Anm.d.GreWi-Red.: eine genauere Erläuterung dieser Umstände finden sie im folgenden Video).

3. Wir haben die "Cheopskartusche" in der oberen Kammer niemals auch nur angerührt.

4. Wir haben nur eine winzige Probe von einem der (benachbarten) Arbeitergraffiti (den sog. 'Vyse paintings'), die sich einige Meter von der Kartusche entfernt befindet und einige winzige Probe von der Decke der Königskammer entfernt. In beiden Fällen handelte es sich nur im einige wenige Milligramm (an Material). Wir haben niemals etwas gestohlen - wir wollten sogar einen Gegenwert in Form wissenschaftlicher Daten und Erkenntnisse an die ägyptischen Gesellschaft zurückgeben.

5. Wir wollen auch bekunden und unterstreichen, dass unsere ägyptischen Begleiter zu keiner Zeit über die Probenentnahme informiert waren und völlig unschuldig sind. Dies bedeutet auch, dass keine Bestechungsgelder an unsere Begleiter geflossen sind.

6. Natürlich wollen und werden wir, für den Fall einer Kooperation, alle unsere Veröffentlichungen und weiteren Erklärungen mit den ägyptischen Behörden abstimmen.

7. Wir bieten zudem an, nachträglich eine Gebühr für das Betreten der oberen Entlastungskammer zu entrichten.

8. Und wir bieten den vollständigen Zugang zu allen unseren Daten an, wenn diese im Sinne der Wissenschaft und des Erbes der ägyptischen Zivilisation verwendet werden.

In unsren Briefen an den Minister der Altertumsverwaltung und an Dr. Osman haben wir bereits unsere Motivation und Absichten erklärt. Aus diesem Grund möchte ich diese hier nicht nochmals wiederholen. Dennoch möchte ich mich ein weiteres Mal entschuldigen und eine zukünftig bessere Zusammenarbeit anbieten.

Herr Stefan Erdmann und ich sind davon überzeugt, dass vielleicht eine einvernehmliche und freundschaftliche Lösung ohne Schäden für beide Seiten gefunden werden kann.

Bitte verstehen sie unsere Aktivität nicht als Angriff gegen die ägyptische Kultur zu betrachten. Dies war niemals unsere Absicht. Wir taten es aus rein wissenschaftlicher Absicht und auf der Suche nach der Wahrheit. Die ägyptischen Experten und nicht die Medien sollen als erste Zugriff auf unsere Ergebnisse bekommen.

Ich hoffe, dass diese Informationen auch in Ägypten die richtigen Menschen erreicht.

Dr. Dominique Görlitz & Stefan Erdmann


Translation with Google:

Quote:
Dear Mr. Bauval,

as already explained to you we will send you herewith a statement of our research project within the Cheops pyramid.

First we want to thank you for that you are going to help us to solve the current situation in a peaceful manner.

Let me at the outset to emphasize that we have not planned our activity with the intention of damaging the Egyptian heritage. For this reason, we also want to apologize for it, that so many Egyptians are angry with us. Thus, it is to carefully explain to us with the following declaration also a concern, our intentions, implementation and goals to hopefully be able to calm the controversy.

I myself (Dominique Görlitz), am a student of Thor Heyerdahl, a member of the European Society of experimental archeology and the Explorers Club of New York and also scientists with international scientific connections. I would never cause damage to the cultural heritage of the Egyptian nation. Therefore, please accept my apologies and my plea for understanding.

As I have already explained to Dr. Osman and the honorable Minister of the Egyptian Department of Antiquities Ibrahim, who won on the basis of sample data are very interesting and new evidence for the study of 4th Dynasty provide.

We want to emphasize that we have failed so far to publish the scientific results, as it is for us of particular importance to establish a confidential relationship with you again. These data need to be discussed by scientists, carefully explained and classified, instead of torn media and other hostilities.

For this reason, to communicate with you (Bauval) as well as with Dr. Osman is very important to us and we are very grateful that you want to help us to maintain our academic standards and to promote the possibility of a diplomatic dialogue.

Against this background, you should also know that we are contacted daily by a large number of international media inquiries, wish to report in this matter. Nevertheless, we stand firmly by our promise that we give even Dr. Osman and the Minister: We will advance not to disclose information to the wrong people. Thus we hope in the sense of science and for Egyptian culture on another exchange.

As explained earlier, I would like to clarify the following points

1 We had permission to enter the pyramid.

2 We had not planned in advance to enter the upper relief chamber. This arose by chance, as our investigation methods had changed on site (Anm.d.GreWi-Red., A detailed description of these circumstances can be found in the following video).

3 We have the "Cheops cartridge" in the upper chamber never even touched.

4 We have just a tiny sample of one of the (neighboring) workers Graffiti (the so-called 'Vyse paintings'), which is located a few meters away from the cartridge and some tiny sample from the ceiling of the King's Chamber. In both cases, it was only in a few milligrams (of material). We have never stolen anything - we even wanted to return a value in the form of scientific data and findings to the Egyptian society.

5 We also want to express and emphasize that our Egyptian attendants were informed at any time about the sampling and are completely innocent. This also means that no bribes flowed to our companion.

6 Of course we want to and will vote in the case of cooperation, all of our publications and other statements with the Egyptian authorities.

7 We offer also to subsequently pay a fee for entering the upper relief chamber.

8 And we offer full access to all our data, when used in the sense of science and heritage of the Egyptian civilization.

In our men's letters to the Minister of the Department of Antiquities and Dr. Osman we have already explained our motivation and intentions. For this reason I would like this one do not repeat again. However, I want to apologize one more time and offer a better future cooperation.

Mr. Stefan Erdmann and I believe that maybe a friendly and amicable solution without damage for both sides can be found.

Please do not understand our activity as an attack against the Egyptian culture to consider. This was never our intention. We did it from a purely scientific purpose and in search of the truth. The Egyptian experts and does not want the media to get first access to our results.

I hope that this information reaches the right people in Egypt.

Dr. Dominique Görlitz & Stefan Erdmann


Video of an Radio Interview with Robert Bauval

Greetings, Lutz.
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