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Yuya- the temporary king?
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Frater0082
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:26 pm    Post subject: Yuya- the temporary king? Reply with quote

Hey does anyone else besides me think that Yuya may have ran the country after the death of Thutmosis IV until Amenhotep III was old enough to rule? I know that there is no evidence but I'm just wondering. Also could it have been possible that Yuya and Mutemiya were siblings or related in some other way.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Yuya- the temporary king? Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
Hey does anyone else besides me think that Yuya may have ran the country after the death of Thutmosis IV until Amenhotep III was old enough to rule? I know that there is no evidence but I'm just wondering. Also could it have been possible that Yuya and Mutemiya were siblings or related in some other way.


What makes you think that Amenhotep III was not old enough to rule upon the death of his father, Thutmose IV? There's no indication that he was particularly young (in ancient Egyptian terms), as "adulthood" activities could be carried out by royal males as early as 8-9 years of age.

Assuming we have the correct remains which are identified as Amenhotep III (there is some doubt), the minimum age at death was 45 years of age, ranging to mid-50's. Taking even the lowest age of 45, and assuming about a 36 year reign (this includes the 3 jubilees at Year 30, 33 and 36 Amenhotep III), Amenhotep would have been 9 years of age at time of his accession to kingship, which would be within the normal age range for an Egyptian royal male to be considered mature enough for the adult responsibility of kingship.

Secondly, even IF Amenhotep III was younger than this age, the usual means of rule is through the interregnum queen, which in this case, would have been Mutemwiya. However, we do not have any records which show that she took on the royal of interregnum for Amenhotep III.

Thirdly, as I suspect is your real agenda, there is an assumption that Yuya's title of /it nTr/ conveyed a familial relationship to the royal house, let me point out that the title of /it nTr/ conveys no such relationship.

The title of /it nTr/ is a mentor title, conveyed to statesmen who serve the royal household, and royal children were often put within these statesmen's charge, in order to learn royal government, sporting and war skills, etc.

The role of the /it nTr/ as a mentor role is comprehensively discussed in

Blumenthal, Elke 1987. Die "Gottesväter" des Alten und Mittleren Reiches. Zeitschrift für ägyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde 114: 10-35.

Brunner, H. 1988. Der "Gottesvater" als Erzieher des Kronprinzen. In Brunner, H., Das hörende Herz: kleine Schriften zur Religions- und Geistesgeschichte Ägyptens: 70-81. Freiburg Schweiz: Gottingen/Universitätsverlag/Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht

Habachi, L. 1958. God's Fathers and the Role They Played in the History of the First Intermediate Period. Annales du Service des Antiquités de l'Égypte 55: 167-190.

Janssen, R. M. and J. J. Janssen 2007. Growing Up and Getting Old in Ancient Egypt. transl. London: Golden House Publications.

Ockinga, B. G. 1997. A Tomb from the Reign of Tutankhamun at Akhmim. Australian Center for Egyptology Reports 10. transl. Warminster: Aris and Phillips.

Roehrig, C. H. 1990. The Eighteenth Dynasty titles royal nurse (mnat nswt) royal tutor (mna nswt), and foster brother/sister of the Lord of the Two Lands (sn/snt mna n nb tAwy). Ann Arbor, MI: UMI

Schaden, O. J. 1977.The God's Father, Ay. Ph.D. Dissertation (Unpublished). Department of History. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota.

Tomimura, D. 1973. [God's Father and Min in Pharaonic Egypt]. (In Japanese). Cultura Antiqua (Kyoto) 25/4: 150-153.

To be clear, title of /it nTr/ was incorporated into Ay's titulary after Tutankhamun's death as it was the only relationship that Ay had with the royal family - he had served as Tutankhamun's /it nTr/. In fact, Ay capitalises upon his mentor relationship with Tutankhamun, often referring to the preceding king as "son," although it was clear that Tutankhamun was born of a preceding king (see again the Hermopolis block referred to in the Nakht-paaten thread) and not from Ay.

Ay uses the mentor /it nTr/ title as his own justification for taking the throne, and with the Newberry ring, which shows the conjoined names of Ay's titulary as king with that of Ankhsenamun (implying a possibly marriage, but definitely an association of Ay as a royal), indicates the various means that a non-royal male had to take to secure a throne, to which he was not entitled by family relationship.

HTH.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had no agenda of no sort just had a simple question
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Yuya- the temporary king? Reply with quote

Frater0082 wrote:
Hey does anyone else besides me think that Yuya may have ran the country after the death of Thutmosis IV until Amenhotep III was old enough to rule? ...
Frater0082 wrote:
I had no agenda of no sort ...

Alas what ... And how it looks if you have one?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What else is the statement "does anyone else besides me think that" if not a "agenda"?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Yuya- the temporary king? Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
Frater0082 wrote:
Hey does anyone else besides me think that Yuya may have ran the country after the death of Thutmosis IV until Amenhotep III was old enough to rule? I know that there is no evidence but I'm just wondering. Also could it have been possible that Yuya and Mutemiya were siblings or related in some other way.


What makes you think that Amenhotep III was not old enough to rule upon the death of his father, Thutmose IV? There's no indication that he was particularly young (in ancient Egyptian terms), as "adulthood" activities could be carried out by royal males as early as 8-9 years of age.

Assuming we have the correct remains which are identified as Amenhotep III (there is some doubt),


But not a particularly reasonable one. Since the remains, identified as Amenhotep III in antiquity by a docket on his mummy fits to the previous generation and to the next two DNA-wise, it seems to be quite securely he.


Quote:
Thirdly, as I suspect is your real agenda, there is an assumption that Yuya's title of /it nTr/ conveyed a familial relationship to the royal house, let me point out that the title of /it nTr/ conveys no such relationship.


Nor does it rule that out.


Quote:
To be clear, title of /it nTr/ was incorporated into Ay's titulary after Tutankhamun's death as it was the only relationship that Ay had with the royal family - he had served as Tutankhamun's /it nTr/. In fact, Ay capitalises upon his mentor relationship with Tutankhamun, often referring to the preceding king as "son," although it was clear that Tutankhamun was born of a preceding king (see again the Hermopolis block referred to in the Nakht-paaten thread) and not from Ay.


I wasn't aware that Ay referred to Tutankhamun as his son. Can you supply an example of this? I do recall Ay referring to himself as "eldest king's son" but if that is "sA nsw tpi", then the meaning is not clear, but their are possibilities. I agree that "it nTr" is a mentor title but as far as I am aware, it is still also considered to be a priestly one, as well. Therefore, the following opinion could be questioned:

Quote:
Ay uses the mentor /it nTr/ title as his own justification for taking the throne, and with the Newberry ring, which shows the conjoined names of Ay's titulary as king with that of Ankhsenamun (implying a possibly marriage, but definitely an association of Ay as a royal), indicates the various means that a non-royal male had to take to secure a throne, to which he was not entitled by family relationship.


Well, at one time nobody considered that Yuya [another "it nTr"] had any family relationship to Amenhotep III except being his father-in-law. But the DNA picture indicates otherwise. Yuya is a blood relative of that pharaoh. So I don't know how anyone can know for certain that this was also not true of Ay--that he was no blood kin to the royals. In fact, the next king to sit on the throne, Horemheb, claimed to be a son of Thutmose III. In Egyptian "son" can represent "male descendant", too. The ring is more enigmatic than indicative because, in the double cartouches of the item, the name of Ankhesenamun is written there without indicating any wifely status, such as would have been had "Hmt nsw" been included. People have assumed for ages that Ay was a brother of Queen Tiye--but based on what? But let's say he was. Somebody knows if Yuya was related to Amenhotep III on the paternal side, I am quite certain---but that information hasn't been revealed. If so, then if Ay was a full brother of Tiye he was a descendant of kings.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Yuya- the temporary king? Reply with quote

neseret wrote:
Frater0082 wrote:
Hey does anyone else besides me think that Yuya may have ran the country after the death of Thutmosis IV until Amenhotep III was old enough to rule? I know that there is no evidence but I'm just wondering. Also could it have been possible that Yuya and Mutemiya were siblings or related in some other way.


What makes you think that Amenhotep III was not old enough to rule upon the death of his father, Thutmose IV? There's no indication that he was particularly young (in ancient Egyptian terms), as "adulthood" activities could be carried out by royal males as early as 8-9 years of age.

Assuming we have the correct remains which are identified as Amenhotep III (there is some doubt),


But not a particularly reasonable one. Since the remains, identified as Amenhotep III in antiquity by a docket on his mummy fits to the previous generation and to the next two DNA-wise, it seems to be quite securely he.


Quote:
Thirdly, as I suspect is your real agenda, there is an assumption that Yuya's title of /it nTr/ conveyed a familial relationship to the royal house, let me point out that the title of /it nTr/ conveys no such relationship.


Nor does it rule that out.


Quote:
To be clear, title of /it nTr/ was incorporated into Ay's titulary after Tutankhamun's death as it was the only relationship that Ay had with the royal family - he had served as Tutankhamun's /it nTr/. In fact, Ay capitalises upon his mentor relationship with Tutankhamun, often referring to the preceding king as "son," although it was clear that Tutankhamun was born of a preceding king (see again the Hermopolis block referred to in the Nakht-paaten thread) and not from Ay.


I wasn't aware that Ay referred to Tutankhamun as his son. Can you supply an example of this? I do recall Ay referring to himself as "eldest king's son" but if that is "sA nsw tpi", then the meaning is not clear, but their are possibilities. I agree that "it nTr" is a mentor title but as far as I am aware, it is still also considered to be a priestly one, as well. Therefore, the following opinion could be questioned:

Quote:
Ay uses the mentor /it nTr/ title as his own justification for taking the throne, and with the Newberry ring, which shows the conjoined names of Ay's titulary as king with that of Ankhsenamun (implying a possibly marriage, but definitely an association of Ay as a royal), indicates the various means that a non-royal male had to take to secure a throne, to which he was not entitled by family relationship.


Well, at one time nobody considered that Yuya [another "it nTr"] had any family relationship to Amenhotep III except being his father-in-law. But the DNA picture indicates otherwise. Yuya is a blood relative of that pharaoh. So I don't know how anyone can know for certain that this was also not true of Ay--that he was no blood kin to the royals. In fact, the next king to sit on the throne, Horemheb, claimed to be a son of Thutmose III. In Egyptian "son" can represent "male descendant", too. The ring is more enigmatic than indicative because, in the double cartouches of the item, the name of Ankhesenamun is written there without indicating any wifely status, such as would have been had "Hmt nsw" been included. People have assumed for ages that Ay was a brother of Queen Tiye--but based on what? But let's say he was. Somebody knows if Yuya was related to Amenhotep III on the paternal side, I am quite certain---but that information hasn't been revealed. If so, then if Ay was a full brother of Tiye he was a descendant of kings.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lexikon der Ägyptologie - Vol. II. - Wiesbaden : Harrassowitz, 1977. - Labib Habachi : Gottesvater. - Col. 825 - 6:



The term "son" by Aja against Tutankhamun appears in inscriptions on blocks found at Karnak (now at the open-air museums). They come from at least two buildings: "Hwt Nb-xprw-Ra m WAst" and "Hwt Nb-xprw-Ra mrj Jmn grg WAst". Both were probably on the site of the Amun-District at Karnak and were started by Tutankhamun and completed under Aja. Maybe one of them served as "House for Millions of Years" for the deceased Tutankhamun.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
The term "son" by Aja against Tutankhamun appears in inscriptions on blocks found at Karnak (now at the open-air museums). They come from at least two buildings: "Hwt Nb-xprw-Ra m WAst" and "Hwt Nb-xprw-Ra mrj Jmn grg WAst". Both were probably on the site of the Amun-District at Karnak and were started by Tutankhamun and completed under Aja. Maybe one of them served as "House for Millions of Years" for the deceased Tutankhamun.


Thanks, Lutz. But I seemed to recall that Ay used the title "it nTr" before he ever had a cartouche and this book gives the info, below. Ay did, indeed, refer to Tutankhamun as his son in the same formula other kings referred to their predecessors as "father". One reason I can think of for doing it is because it was not proper for an older successor to refer to a young man he had succeeded as "father"--or that he was an older relative of Tutankhamun and that was the relationship was expressed.

http://books.google.com/books?id=vopE9yxVx2QC&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=Ay+AND+refers+to+Tutankhamun+as+son+at+Karnak&source=bl&ots=7QDAYqYbPg&sig=Pjww75k02PgLEsH1qSgys1gvSt0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GDTcUrnlBMTuyQH56oG4DA&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Ay%20AND%20refers%20to%20Tutankhamun%20as%20son%20at%20Karnak&f=false
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points Sidney F.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
... But I seemed to recall that Ay used the title "it nTr" before he ever had a cartouche and this book gives the info, below. ...

This is undisputed and multiple assignable. I do not understand exactly what you want to say with that?

SidneyF wrote:
... Ay ... refer to Tutankhamun as his son ... he was an older relative of Tutankhamun and that was the relationship was expressed.

Personally, I also tend to think so. Either he himself or a very close member of his direct family must have been relatives of the family of Tuya and Yuya, from my point of view. How / Who can probably ultimately only by new discoveries clarify.

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
... But I seemed to recall that Ay used the title "it nTr" before he ever had a cartouche and this book gives the info, below. ...

This is undisputed and multiple assignable. I do not understand exactly what you want to say with that?

SidneyF wrote:
... Ay ... refer to Tutankhamun as his son ... he was an older relative of Tutankhamun and that was the relationship was expressed.

Personally, I also tend to think so. Either he himself or a very close member of his direct family must have been relatives of the family of Tuya and Yuya, from my point of view. How / Who can probably ultimately only by new discoveries clarify.

Greetings, Lutz.


Both you clearly has great point of view but I kind of agree with both of you.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:16 am    Post subject: Re: Yuya- the temporary king? Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
Well, at one time nobody considered that Yuya [another "it nTr"] had any family relationship to Amenhotep III except being his father-in-law. But the DNA picture indicates otherwise. Yuya is a blood relative of that pharaoh. So I don't know how anyone can know for certain that this was also not true of Ay--that he was no blood kin to the royals. In fact, the next king to sit on the throne, Horemheb, claimed to be a son of Thutmose III. In Egyptian "son" can represent "male descendant", too. The ring is more enigmatic than indicative because, in the double cartouches of the item, the name of Ankhesenamun is written there without indicating any wifely status, such as would have been had "Hmt nsw" been included. People have assumed for ages that Ay was a brother of Queen Tiye--but based on what? But let's say he was. Somebody knows if Yuya was related to Amenhotep III on the paternal side, I am quite certain---but that information hasn't been revealed. If so, then if Ay was a full brother of Tiye he was a descendant of kings.


the idea yuya and mutemwia were siblings is an old one. from my understanding of the DNA, yuya was maternally related to amenhotep III.....this in no way proves yuya was a descendant of kings. belonging to the nobility, there is a high chance he did, like ay and horemheb probably did. look at any european nobility, they have descent from monarchs. but usually quite remote. so if yuya and mutemwia had royal blood, is it likely to be a duaghter of a pharoah? or a son? and which king is likley? thutmose III? or more remote, such as ahmose?

when you state ay could be related to the royal family, yes that is plausible, but obviously he is not of royal blood. it is quite possible he is a brother or cousin of tiye, thought to be because he shares similar titulary to yuya. but it is quite possible he married one of tiye's sisters. the theory he is nefertiti's father is also plausible. but nowhere does he state he is a queen's father.

as for the newberry ring, i had always wondered whether is showed marriage between ay and ankhesenamun, or the transfer of power to him?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:45 am    Post subject: Re: Yuya- the temporary king? Reply with quote

[quote="kylejustin"]
SidneyF wrote:
Well, at one time nobody considered that Yuya [another "it nTr"] had any family relationship to Amenhotep III except being his father-in-law. But the DNA picture indicates otherwise. Yuya is a blood relative of that pharaoh. So I don't know how anyone can know for certain that this was also not true of Ay--that he was no blood kin to the royals. In fact, the next king to sit on the throne, Horemheb, claimed to be a son of Thutmose III. In Egyptian "son" can represent "male descendant", too. The ring is more enigmatic than indicative because, in the double cartouches of the item, the name of Ankhesenamun is written there without indicating any wifely status, such as would have been had "Hmt nsw" been included. People have assumed for ages that Ay was a brother of Queen Tiye--but based on what? But let's say he was. Somebody knows if Yuya was related to Amenhotep III on the paternal side, I am quite certain---but that information hasn't been revealed. If so, then if Ay was a full brother of Tiye he was a descendant of kings.


Quote:
the idea yuya and mutemwia were siblings is an old one from my understanding of the DNA, yuya was maternally related to amenhotep III....


From the information of the JAMA paper, which deals with STRs, there is no way to know anything other than that Amenhotep III shares quite a lot of DNA with Yuya. Just by looking at the alleles, it's not possible to see where those that AIII shared with Yuya came from--as the DNA of Thutmose IV was not included in the study. If it had been, we would know where the numbers came from.

Quote:
this in no way proves yuya was a descendant of kings.


A negative can't prove anything. Further information is needed.


Quote:
when you state ay could be related to the royal family, yes that is plausible, but obviously he is not of royal blood.



I don't know why it's so obvious. The kings of Egypt had many sons, but only one of them could be the successor. Probably, some of those lesser sons also had sons. I don't know how it would be possible to know the background of Ay, lacking his mummy, without some other kind of clue--not now available.

Quote:
it is quite possible he is a brother or cousin of tiye, thought to be because he shares similar titulary to yuya. but it is quite possible he married one of tiye's sisters. the theory he is nefertiti's father is also plausible. but nowhere does he state he is a queen's father.


No he doesn't.

Quote:
as for the newberry ring, i had always wondered whether is showed marriage between ay and ankhesenamun, or the transfer of power to him?


I think such faience rings were made in quantities in order to make a statement of some kind, announce something, but what?
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