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Tomb of King Sobekhotep (1786-1763) - 1st King 13th Dynasty

 
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: Tomb of King Sobekhotep (1786-1763) - 1st King 13th Dynasty Reply with quote

13th Dynasty Tomb Discovered in Upper Egypt (Luxor Times - Monday, 6 January 2014)
Quote:
"Dr. Mohamed Ibrahim announced today the discovery of King Sobekhotep (1786-1763) who is probably the first King of the 13th Dynasty.
The tomb discovered by Pennsylvania University mission working south of Abydos, Sohag."

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some more press reports (via / from EEF) ...

http://www.timeslive.co.za/scitech/2014/01/06/us-diggers-identify-tomb-of-pharoah-sobekhotep-i
http://www.france24.com/en/20140106-american-diggers-identify-tomb-egypt-pharaoh/
http://mg.co.za/article/2014-01-06-ancient-pharaohs-tomb-unearthed-in-egypt/
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=63418
http://www.theartnewspaper.com/articles/Egyptian-pharaohs-tomb-discovered-by-American-archaeologists/31418
http://gulfnews.com/news/region/egypt/american-diggers-identify-tomb-of-egypt-pharaoh-1.1274543

Greetings, Lutz.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:10 pm    Post subject: How was the quartzite "sarcophagus" cut? Reply with quote

Every article I've seen includes that same photo of the quartzite box. At the point the lumen narrows, there seems to be a septum slab of stone that slides into place veritcally, a part of it chipped off. I'm unaware of a "sarcophagus" with a multichambered lumen like that. Does anyone know of any other stone box that includes that internal design?

Also, I'm thinking about the relative hardness of materials back then:
    Copper - 3 mohs
    Dolomite - 3.5 mohs
    Quartz - 6.5 mohs
    Quartzite - 7 mohs
    Diamond - 10 mohs
So how did they cut that quartzite block, especially considering those sharp inside corners?

- Origyptian
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denys A. Stocks : Experiments in Egyptian Archaeology - Stoneworking Technology in Ancient Egypt. - London : Routledge, 2003. - ISBN : 0-415-30664-7. - XXX, 263 p.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Lutz!

I'm already familiar with Stocks' work, and Lehner's attempt on Discovery to demonstrate Stocks' theories by building his mini pyramid and they are non-starters for MOHs>6.0. Copper works reasonably well on limestone. But neither copper or even flint or diorite can explain the granite and quartzite work. Especially the sharp inside corners, e.g., such as those seen at the narrow end of the lumen in that quartzite box, or in the Apis bull granite boxes found in the Serapeum. I realize there may be a temporal conflict, but the physical data is there; copper and flint simply cannot be attributed to those ancient granite and quartzite structures. I was only asking if there was a more current credible proposal that replaces Stocks' very problematic (and unlikely) perspective.

Thanks again!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: How was the quartzite "sarcophagus" cut? Reply with quote

Origyptian wrote:
Every article I've seen includes that same photo of the quartzite box. At the point the lumen narrows, there seems to be a septum slab of stone that slides into place veritcally, a part of it chipped off. I'm unaware of a "sarcophagus" with a multichambered lumen like that. Does anyone know of any other stone box that includes that internal design?

Also, I'm thinking about the relative hardness of materials back then:
    Copper - 3 mohs
    Dolomite - 3.5 mohs
    Quartz - 6.5 mohs
    Quartzite - 7 mohs
    Diamond - 10 mohs
So how did they cut that quartzite block, especially considering those sharp inside corners?

- Origyptian


A very good question and one I posed in a previous thread:

http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=66172&highlight=#66172

For which I have still not got an answer.

All I can suggest is a lot of skill and enormous patience.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course all the skill and patience in the universe can't overcome the fact that Quartzite, quartz, and granite are all 10 times harder than copper.

Lehner's mini-pyramid construction experiment using limestone blocks that were far softer and smaller than those used to build the Great Pyramid essentially disproved Stocks' conjecture that the ancients cut granite with copper.

So how'd they do it?
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A M Street
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Origyptian wrote:
Of course all the skill and patience in the universe can't overcome the fact that Quartzite, quartz, and granite are all 10 times harder than copper.

Lehner's mini-pyramid construction experiment using limestone blocks that were far softer and smaller than those used to build the Great Pyramid essentially disproved Stocks' conjecture that the ancients cut granite with copper.

So how'd they do it?


Agreed, but I did hear that diorite pounders could have been used for cutting and shaping these stones, and as I said as for the polishing corundum was apparently know in AE and could have be used.

I know that's not really satisfactory but I have not come across any likelier suggestions.

But it is still quite a puzzle trying to work out how they achieved such stunning results with the technology that they appear to have had.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm very familiar with the diorite pounding ball theory. I'd love to see a Stocks or Lehner produce a 5'x5' granite plane that's as shiny and flat using diorite pounders and corundum polishers.

While it's extremely problematic to consider diorite balls to be able to produce such perfectly flat and polished planes, it's simply impossible for diorite pounding balls to produce the razor sharp inside corners seen on many granite boxes like those in the Serapeum, the Great Pyramid, or Sobekhotep's site.

And while the granite box in the Great Pyramids shows evidence of cylindrical core drill bits on the bottom plane, it is not possible for copper to achieve that, and the diameter of those bits could not have produced the sharp inside corners.

Believe me, I am not trying to perpetuate a mystery. I'm simply looking for answers to an engineering contradiction based on the physical evidence which needs to be resolved.

And as of this moment there really is no credible hypothesis to account for much of what we see there.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Josef Wegner / Kevin Cahail : Royal Funerary Equipment of a King Sobekhotep at South Abydos - Evidence for the Tombs of Sobekhotep IV
and Neferhotep I?
. - In: Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt - JARCE 51. - 2015. - pp. 123 – 164 :
Quote:
"Abstract: Recent excavations at South Abydos have produced evidence for the date and ownership of a group of royal tombs adjacent to the tomb enclosure of Senwosret III. Tombs S9 and S10, two structures investigated initially by Arthur Weigall, are late Middle Kingdom royal tombs constructed using the distinctive format of the late Middle Kingdom royal pyramid interiors known primarily from the Memphite region. Excavations during 2013–2015 in and around tomb S10 now permit its attribution to one of the Thirteenth Dynasty Sobekhotep kings. Evidence includes a monumental funerary stela bearing the nomen Sobekhotep that appears to derive from a now-destroyed chapel associated with S10. The stela was likely reused in an adjacent intrusive tomb: that of the Second Intermediate period king, Woseribre-Senebkay. In Senebkay’s tomb, excavation revealed that king’s canopic chest, constructed from reused planks that had originally belonged to the coffin of a king Sobekhotep. The original painted texts include a distinctive set of Coffin Texts (Spells 777–785), examples of which date to the middle–late Thirteenth Dynasty. The probable chronological range of these spells, paired with additional lines of evidence suggest that S10 is the burial place of one of the longer-reigning Sobekhotep kings of the middle Thirteenth Dynasty, likely Sobekhotep IV. The proximity of S10 to the similarly designed tomb S9 implies royal burials at South Abydos of two closely connected kings, the brother kings Neferhotep I and Sobekhotep IV, who were unusually active at Abydos and may have chosen to associate their tombs with the mortuary complex of Senwosret III. During the later Second Intermediate period, Senebkay (ca. 1650–1600 BCE) and associated kings reused both funerary equipment and materials from these late Middle Kingdom tombs.

Greetings, Lutz.
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