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Barry Kemp's latest book on Armana
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
Akhenaten, in reference to his god in the Great Hymn to the Aten: "O Sole God beside whom there is none".

That's in writing--and I think that is clear enough.

No, because I do not read here "Let's close all other temples".
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
Lutz wrote:
The texts of the inscription bands on the coffin from KV 55 are original. There study in Munich in 2001 showed this clear and unambiguous.

No one claimed otherwise. The changes were made to the inscription on the foot of the coffin.

"mAa xrw" also appears in the inscriptions bands. These are original. Therefore, the subsequent addition of the text F is for our question here irrelevant.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
Lutz wrote:
The texts of the inscription bands on the coffin from KV 55 are original. There study in Munich in 2001 showed this clear and unambiguous.

No one claimed otherwise. The changes were made to the inscription on the foot of the coffin.

"mAa xrw" also appears in the inscriptions bands. These are original. Therefore, the subsequent addition of the text F is for our question here irrelevant.


Where on the coffin does it say "mAa xrw"? This is the best photo of the band down the front I could find. Where do you see that there?

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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


The last 4 signs : U4 or U5 - D36 - Aa11 - N1.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure that's it and not a canopic coffinette?
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
Are you sure that's it and not a canopic coffinette?


It's the KV55 coffin. I was able to finally find an image that I could enlarge at the site so I actually read the text.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz, I have not had much time to look at this, but who says it "mAa xrw" is written at the foot of that coffin? I don't see it. First of all, that term "true of voice" or "justified" usually comes after a person's name or, in the event of a royal, his cartouche. That isn't the case on that coffin--but that's how it goes on the canopic coffinettes of Tutankhamun. It appears to me that the inscription of the KV55 one goes all the way down to the base, but I can't see what is there. Too faint in the photos. I can see the word "mAa" but I don't see Aa 11 after it--although sometimes "mAa" is written redundantly with the sign Aa 11, which stands for "mAa" by itself, with the other signs that are also present. What you see as Aa 11 looks to me like Aa 15 or /m/. Regardless, I can't see the sign for "xrw" that would follow.

Do you have a translation or transliteration of that front band by some authority?
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today I had time to check the book "The Tomb of Queen Tiyi" [KV55], which anyone can see here:

https://archive.org/details/cu31924028654691


The inscriptions within and without the coffin are given but I notice that the one on the middle band stops at the word "Dt" [forever], probably because the rest of what is there was incomprehensible due to erosion even to those who could see the glyphs first hand. If "mAa xrw" had been clearly there after "Dt", it would have been copied with the other signs. Otherwise, no "mAa xrw" in the other inscriptions--except on the foot of the coffin, which was an addition. Lutz, you need to supply further information as to why you stated that this phrase was elsewhere on that KV55 and why that was as obvious as you said.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alfred Grimm / Sylvia Schoske : Das Geheimnis des Goldenen Sarges - Echnaton und das Ende der Amarnazeit. - [Sonderausstellung Das Geheimnis des Goldenen Sarges - Echnaton und das Ende der Amarnazeit, München,Staatliches Museum Ägyptischer Kunst, 17. Oktober 2001 bis 6. Januar 2002]. - [Schriften aus der Ägyptischen Sammlung - SAS 10]. - München : Staatliches Museum Ägyptischer Kunst, 2001. - ISBN : 3-87490-722-8. - 162 p.

On page 106 - 108 are the translations (in German) of the inscriptions from the coffin. Author of this article / part of the book ("Goldsarg ohne Geheimnis". - p. 101-114) is Alfred Grimm (Egyptology, Philology of the Christian Orient and Art History at the University München. 1986 Phil.Diss. in Egyptology. Since 1990 curator at the National Collection of Egyptian Art Munich.).

Somewhere here in the forum I have posted the complete texts in German and translated with Google. There must be also various scans directly from the book in older posts of mine.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Alfred Grimm / Sylvia Schoske : Das Geheimnis des Goldenen Sarges - Echnaton und das Ende der Amarnazeit. - [Sonderausstellung Das Geheimnis des Goldenen Sarges - Echnaton und das Ende der Amarnazeit, München,Staatliches Museum Ägyptischer Kunst, 17. Oktober 2001 bis 6. Januar 2002]. - [Schriften aus der Ägyptischen Sammlung - SAS 10]. - München : Staatliches Museum Ägyptischer Kunst, 2001. - ISBN : 3-87490-722-8. - 162 p.

On page 106 - 108 are the translations (in German) of the inscriptions from the coffin. Author of this article / part of the book ("Goldsarg ohne Geheimnis". - p. 101-114) is Alfred Grimm (Egyptology, Philology of the Christian Orient and Art History at the University München. 1986 Phil.Diss. in Egyptology. Since 1990 curator at the National Collection of Egyptian Art Munich.).

Somewhere here in the forum I have posted the complete texts in German and translated with Google. There must be also various scans directly from the book in older posts of mine.


There must be? Then I suggest you find them as I don't have time to search through all your posts. If you have posted the complete texts before, is there some reason you can't do so again? The original German will do and the text in question on the band will be enough. Or just a quote from the above source that "mAa xrw" exists in the inscriptions on that KV55 coffin.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And, also, you can look on the top of page 10 in Gabolde's paper, here:

http://cassian.memphis.edu/history/murnane/M_Gabolde.pdf


and notice where he says he was wrong in reading "mAa xrw" and for misleading the authors of the Munich catalogue.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
There must be? Then I suggest you find them as I don't have time to search through all your posts. ...

And I suggest you have a look for the book by yourself. This should be for an "Egyptologist" (as you call yourself) really not be a big problem, especially since my references are accurate even on pages.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
And, also, you can look on the top of page 10 in Gabolde's paper, here:

http://cassian.memphis.edu/history/murnane/M_Gabolde.pdf


and notice where he says he was wrong in reading "mAa xrw" and for misleading the authors of the Munich catalogue.

Can I then assume that you agree Gabolde also in the immediately following? :
Quote:
"... Such a text unequivocally makes Akhenaten the last owner of the coffin. The fact that Akhenaten is referred to once in the first person singular, and another time in the third person singular is simply due to the fact that the relationship of Akhenaten/Kiya in the original inscription has been adapted, with some difficulty, to the relationship of the Lord of Heaven/Akhenaten in the emended text. To sum up, the changes in the inscriptions on both the coffin and canopic jars strongly suggest that the last owner of these items was Akhenaten and no other. ..."

Or do you always just looking out only the part that fits just right now for your argumentation? Without thinking of the aim of Gaboldes way to argue here? And without considering that Alfred Grimm (Phil.Diss. in Egyptology, Curator of the Egyptian Museum in Munich) certainly also is able to read and translate hieroglyphs?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
And, also, you can look on the top of page 10 in Gabolde's paper, here:

http://cassian.memphis.edu/history/murnane/M_Gabolde.pdf


and notice where he says he was wrong in reading "mAa xrw" and for misleading the authors of the Munich catalogue.

Can I then assume that you agree Gabolde also in the immediately following? :
Quote:
"... Such a text unequivocally makes Akhenaten the last owner of the coffin. The fact that Akhenaten is referred to once in the first person singular, and another time in the third person singular is simply due to the fact that the relationship of Akhenaten/Kiya in the original inscription has been adapted, with some difficulty, to the relationship of the Lord of Heaven/Akhenaten in the emended text. To sum up, the changes in the inscriptions on both the coffin and canopic jars strongly suggest that the last owner of these items was Akhenaten and no other. ..."

Or do you always just looking out only the part that fits just right now for your argumentation? Without thinking of the aim of Gaboldes way to argue here? And without considering that Alfred Grimm (Phil.Diss. in Egyptology, Curator of the Egyptian Museum in Munich) certainly also is able to read and translate hieroglyphs?


So am I able. What has your quote from Gabolde have to do with whether the phrase "mAa xrw" is written anywhere on or in that coffin? Where did you ever see me claim the coffin was not that of Akhenaten? Well, Lutz, I can just imagine your reaction, you who are always demanding "proofs" if I told you to look in some book for a claim I had made. You would say "I don't have every book" and I say the same. In fact, at this stage in my life I neither want nor need as many books as I once owned. Although I certainly had access to a great library at one time, I don't now. Alfred Grimm is not on this forum. YOU are--and every time I see an appeal to authority without bothering to give a direct quote, when asked for it, I get suspicious because sometimes people are in the habit of interpreting authorities to suit themselves. A nice forum this would be [and it certainly could be if certain parties weren't determined to ruin it] if, for every query, the answer was "look in the book yourself"! I see you are determined to disregard Kevin's warning as though you felt yourself to be irreplaceable here.

For your information, no great belief of mine hangs on whether there was ever "mAa xrw" anywhere on the KV55 coffin besides the foot. It is merely a matter of curiosity. I happen to know that a lot of funerary-type inscriptions, such as those of Nefertiti [shabti] and Kiya [canopic jars] never contained that phrase. So if it was used at Amarna, there was evidently no
consistency about it. For me, Lutz, you are not irreplaceable. You can talk to others. I am having no more interaction with you.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see in no part or single word in my post something that could be interpreted as "disregard Kevin's warning", sorry. I see this as an insinuate from your side (and I guess the rules of the forum apply also to you).

The translations from Grimm / Schoske are here somewhere in the forum, I am absolutely sure. And I see no reason every six months new retyping these texts...

The source is named in page exact (information which indeed noticed by you, if any, one receives only on demand or not at all, see at last example the photos you posted in the "wig-discussion"). Good specialists libraries worldwide have the book - as I be able to see on my computer from home. There is the possibility of interlibrary loan, and certainly not only in Germany. To do that I even have to leave the house.
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