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Barry Kemp's latest book on Armana
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
... To do that I even have to leave the house.

Sorry, error ... I mean : For this one did not even leave the house.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
And, also, you can look on the top of page 10 in Gabolde's paper, here:

http://cassian.memphis.edu/history/murnane/M_Gabolde.pdf

and notice where he says he was wrong in reading "mAa xrw" and for misleading the authors of the Munich catalogue.

And if you read Gabolde`s article thorough then you notice that he reffers with his notes to inscription D (inside of the coffin lid), and not to inscription A on the outside (that we discuss here). For inscription A he confirms the translation by Grimm :

Page: 10 D) wrote:
"..., despite the fact that the formula mAa-xrw is encountered twice in the foot end inscription after the name of the king. ..."

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
And, also, you can look on the top of page 10 in Gabolde's paper, here:

http://cassian.memphis.edu/history/murnane/M_Gabolde.pdf

and notice where he says he was wrong in reading "mAa xrw" and for misleading the authors of the Munich catalogue.

And if you read Gabolde`s article thorough then you notice that he reffers with his notes to inscription D (inside of the coffin lid), and not to inscription A on the outside (that we discuss here). For inscription A he confirms the translation by Grimm :

Page: 10 D) wrote:
"..., despite the fact that the formula mAa-xrw is encountered twice in the foot end inscription after the name of the king. ..."



This was all discussed here previously--with clear illustrations of the FOOT OF THE COFFIN, much altered:

http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=61726&sid=dfa6602fa185be77a137a550640b5c81
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This was all discussed here previously--with clear illustrations of the FOOT OF THE COFFIN, much altered:


http://forum.egyptiandreams.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=61726&sid=dfa6602fa185be77a137a550640b5c81


In Fairman's copy it is possible to see the gold foil superimpositions on the foot of the coffin with dotted lines [............] In Line 1 "mAa xrw" is such an addition/change and in Line 9 one cannot even see it due to erasure of the cartouche. Daressy and others assumed it was there after it--another addition as in Line 1. And that is what Gabolde meant. It was all well explained in a paper by James Allen in a volume of KMT's "Amarna Letters".
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remains the fact that Gaboldes note refers clearly on inscription D (and their translation at Munich) and not on inscription A (at issue here).
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alfred Grimm / Sylvia Schoske : Das Geheimnis des Goldenen Sarges - Echnaton und das Ende der Amarnazeit. - [Schriften aus der Ägyptischen Sammlung - SAS 10]. - München : Staatliches Museum Ägyptischer Kunst, 2001. - page 106 - 108 :



In paragraph "Inschrift D" (Inscription D, p. 108) is behind "gerechtfertigt an Stimme" (justified on voice) a "(?)" visible. So, the uncertain reading of this part, Gabolde is reffering to, was already known and discussed by the Egyptologists in 2001 in Munich. There is no "?" in the translation for inscription A...
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done, Lutz. I'm glad you changed your mind and showed this to us because it is very interesting. For those who can't read German, "Inschrift A" or "Inscription A" is the text down the middle of the Kv55 coffin lid on the outside. This is the salient part:

"...Er wird leben jetzt und immerdar bis in alle Ewigkeit, gerectfertigt im Himmel und auf Erden." or "He shall live now and forever for all eternity, triumphant in heaven and upon earth."


Those who have Hannig's dictionary [also in German] can see his discussion of "mAa xrw" on page 316. There the philologist makes it clear that "mAa xrw" does have an Osirian meaning (2) "nach Namen" --'als wunsch fur zukunftige Seligkeit" and, of course, means 'gerechtfertigt"--which you could translate "justified". BUT on that same page, Hannig gives an entire other meaning for "mAa xrw", in fact lists it separately. And that is why I translated the German phrase on the coffin with "triumphant", instead, because Hannig seems to indicate that [without being after a name] it can have the meaning of "Triumph", his exact word. Therefore, if the king lives forever, he shall be as triumphant in heaven and upon earth as he has been since becoming pharaoh. Nothing will change due to his god-like powers, he being the child of the Aten. It only makes sense because that is the only "mAa xrw" found on the coffin--other than the addition[s] on the foot. The only original one. Hannig gives the example "iti tAwi m mAa xrw" and translates "die Beiden Lander im Triumph einnehmen". And this refers to a god or a king over his enemies. In other words, on that coffin band Akhenaten is having the last word over his critics. [But not in reality] No one on earth or in heaven can successfully oppose him.

So that's why I mentioned earlier in this thread that "mAat xrw" should be after a name or a cartouche to be the Osirian formula.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote:

Quote:
Hannig gives the example "iti tAwi m mAa xrw" and translates "die Beiden Lander im Triumph einnehmen". And this refers to a god or a king over his enemies. In other words, on that coffin band Akhenaten is having the last word over his critics. [But not in reality] No one on earth or in heaven can successfully oppose him.

So that's why I mentioned earlier in this thread that "mAat xrw" should be after a name or a cartouche to be the Osirian formula.


It should be "iTi tAwi m mAa xrw". Believe me, the upper case /T/ makes a big difference in this instance. "Seize the Two Lands in triumph".
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I "changed not my mind", I decide when I consider what is necessary... And to illustrate Gaboldes limitation I saw this need.

LÄ III, 1107-1110, Keyword: "Ma'a-cheru":

Quote:
"Bei Königen scheint das Beiwort außerdem eine andere Bedeutung zu haben, die sich unmittelbar vom Horusmythos herleitet. Beim lebenden König verwendet heißt es 'der Siegreiche, der Rechte, der Legitime'. Spätestens im NR steht M. auch zur Bezeichnung eines politisch siegreichen Königs ..."

Quote:
"For kings the epithet also seems to have a different meaning, which derives directly from the Horus myth. Used for the living king it says 'the Victorious, the Rights, the Legitimate'. Latest in NK M. also used to denote a politically victorious king..."


Texts on coffins are not talking about the living king.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still a little note: Certainly the one or the other member of this forum can confirm that I have no problem to assist, if required, in the procurement of literature from my own private or from to me assessible librarys. If one polite and civilized asks...
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
First, I "changed not my mind", I decide when I consider what is necessary... And to illustrate Gaboldes limitation I saw this need.

LÄ III, 1107-1110, Keyword: "Ma'a-cheru":

Quote:
"Bei Königen scheint das Beiwort außerdem eine andere Bedeutung zu haben, die sich unmittelbar vom Horusmythos herleitet. Beim lebenden König verwendet heißt es 'der Siegreiche, der Rechte, der Legitime'. Spätestens im NR steht M. auch zur Bezeichnung eines politisch siegreichen Königs ..."

Quote:
"For kings the epithet also seems to have a different meaning, which derives directly from the Horus myth. Used for the living king it says 'the Victorious, the Rights, the Legitimate'. Latest in NK M. also used to denote a politically victorious king..."


Texts on coffins are not talking about the living king.


I doubt it matters, as Hannig says the alternative "mAa xrw" is used for triumph "over enemies" in the cases of gods and kings. All gods are not Horus. Even a "Lorbeerkranz" [a victory wreath"] is called "mAH n mAa xrw". I am sure my interpretation is the correct one because

1. There is no other original "maA xrw" anywhere on the KV55 coffin.
2. The "mAa xrw" that pertains exclusively to dead people comes directly after the name and that is not the case here.
3. The inscription on the band states the king will live forever, so that actually being dead [which he was, in reality, of course] would have no bearing on his being triumphant in heaven and upon earth as a god/king. Rainer Hannig mentions nothing about any "political" meaning as a necessary criterion in his discussion of "maA xrw" as "triumphant".
4. There was nothing preventing "mAa xrw" from being written directly after one of the names of Akhenaten on the band, Inscription A. That's exactly how it was used when "mAa xrw" was placed on the coffin foot as an afterthought when the inscription was altered. If Akhenaten had wanted that kind of "mAa xrw", the Osirian forumula, on his coffin, it would have been there in the first place.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Still a little note: Certainly the one or the other member of this forum can confirm that I have no problem to assist, if required, in the procurement of literature from my own private or from to me assessible librarys. If one polite and civilized asks...


Hmmm...are you saying that you made a fuss over posting the relevant pages from the Munich catalogue because I asked for them in an impolite and uncivilized manner? Well, then...

I: Do you have a translation or transliteration of that front band by some authority?

Wow. That was really impolite! What was impolite was your response to my request, which, among other things, insisted that I ought to have the book myself or should request it from interlibrary loan, or search through all your posts on this forum because the material must be there somewhere. Whereupon I said:

I: There must be? Then I suggest you find them as I don't have time to search through all your posts. If you have posted the complete texts before, is there some reason you can't do so again? The original German will do and the text in question on the band will be enough. Or just a quote from the above source that "mAa xrw" exists in the inscriptions on that KV55 coffin.

Well! It seems there was nothing preventing you from posting the pages again. Just as I thought.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What changes not in the slightest the fact, that texts on coffins report about the dead king. They are intended for the otherworld, not for the world of the living. So, I see no reason not to trust rather to the statement of the Egyptologist, Hellmut Brunner in LÄ III...
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
Lutz wrote:
Still a little note: Certainly the one or the other member of this forum can confirm that I have no problem to assist, if required, in the procurement of literature from my own private or from to me assessible librarys. If one polite and civilized asks...

Hmmm...are you saying that you made a fuss over posting the relevant pages from the Munich catalogue because I asked for them in an impolite and uncivilized manner?

What I want to say, for sure I just know alone... But, of course, I can also not prevent anyone from to dress oneself the jacket that fits him?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
What changes not in the slightest the fact, that texts on coffins report about the dead king. They are intended for the otherworld, not for the world of the living. So, I see no reason not to trust rather to the statement of the Egyptologist, Hellmut Brunner in LÄ III...


You don't see any reason because you don't have the ability, apparently, to make an analysis for yourself. I gave points for my own arguments and all you can come back with is "argument from authority". Okay, then what about Barry Kemp? Have you forgotten him? Is he an authority on the Armarna age or not? What did he say in his latest book? I repeat: "There was no kingdom of Osiris" [page 29]. And the overwhelming evidence supports that, so what is your problem? Why are you anxious to make a case for the Osirian cult being alive and well at Akhetaten? It wasn't. End of story.
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