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Canaanite tomb with scarab of Seti I
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:21 pm    Post subject: Canaanite tomb with scarab of Seti I Reply with quote

http://www.heritagedaily.com/2014/04/3300-year-old-canaanite-coffin-discovered-with-signet-ring-of-seti-i/102790
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Eio
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this find was made in the northern part of the Jezreel Valley, near Tel Shadud.

This is apparently the biblical Sarid, which was included in the territory of the tribe of Zebulun and became a border city, as written in the Book of Joshua.

The article says,

"Tel Shadud preserves the biblical name ‘Sarid’ and the mound is often referred to as Tel Sarid."

Thus, 'Sarid' changed into 'Shadud'? Is this normal linguistic change, I wonder?

Does this mean that this town was there before the Exodus?

Regards,

Eio
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eio wrote:
... Does this mean that this town was there before the Exodus? ...

There was an "Exodus"? Cool

Greetings, Lutz.
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Eio
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:

There was an "Exodus"? Cool

Greetings, Lutz.


Well, I think there was something like it...

Do you think it's possible that they could have made up the whole story out of nothing?

Best,

Eio
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eio wrote:
Lutz wrote:
There was an "Exodus"? Cool

Well, I think there was something like it... Do you think it's possible that they could have made up the whole story out of nothing?

Now, it would not be, with safety, the only story in the Pentateuch...

I personally think that the authors of these 5 books in this story process memories from the time of the expulsion of the Hyksos (which were probably counted by them to their ancestors?) and modify this for their own political and ideological purposes: From defeated and driven out of the country was made unceremoniously triumph over pharaoh and excerpt from Egypt. That's why I think the term "exodus" for this is wrong.

Greetings, Lutz.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eio wrote:
Lutz wrote:

There was an "Exodus"? Cool

Greetings, Lutz.


Well, I think there was something like it...

Do you think it's possible that they could have made up the whole story out of nothing?


Well, of course! Jews, after all, are famous for their frivolity and stupidity. They haven't contributed a darned thing to civilization and all their Noble Prizes were handed out by mistake. Laughing Just kidding, of course. Only people who don't know a blessed thing about Jewish life would make such a claim as "there was no exodus". Here's a little edification. The Jews have an entire calendar of holidays or days of commemoration to which was added over the centuries. Hanukkah, the Festival of Lights, was added to that calendar long after the Jews were already celebrating Passover--because of a Jewish victory. The part about some oil lamps burning for eight days is not important, whether true or false. That is just an embellishment of something that really occurred--just as the exodus story has some embellishments, too. Now there is the day of commemoration of those who died in the Holocaust and a day to commemorate the statehood of Israel. But there are people who deny those, too. So what? It has no bearing on the fact that these days of commemoration are based on reality. The first lines in the Book of Exodus can have easily applied in the 1950's during the Nasser regime in Egypt. At that time, there were numerous Jews in the land--but they had to leave. How many are there now? Noooo....of course an exodus can never have happened in ancient Egypt. In fact. they happened in Egypt many times. Those who concentrate on the history of pharaonic times should learn something about what occurred in other eras.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like I misspelled "Nobel Prize". A couple of things I forgot to address: Yes, those two town names are the same due to the fact that "r" and "d" are sometimes interchangeable due to the "tapped" vocalization of "r". It is seen once or twice in ancient Egyptian group writing, as well--the writing of foreign names and places.

And not, least, there is the y Haplogroup E1b1b, very common in Egypt. 30% of Jewish males are part of that group. Where did they get it unless many of those who left on an exodus were Egyptians [the "mixed multitude" of the Bible]? The entire exodus story centers around Moses and a new religion, a monotheistic one. Those who wished to be part of that or who considered undesirable because they were can have consisted of anybody, even persons who had roots in Egypt for more than 500 years.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/jewishe3bproject
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Eio
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Eio wrote:
Do you think it's possible that they could have made up the whole story out of nothing?

Now, it would not be, with safety, the only story in the Pentateuch...


In general IMHO it's safe to believe that any story added up to the Scripture was added for a reason. Just what that reason was could be debated forever. The factual side of the story, as such, may not have been the primary consideration.

Lutz wrote:

I personally think that the authors of these 5 books in this story process memories from the time of the expulsion of the Hyksos (which were probably counted by them to their ancestors?) and modify this for their own political and ideological purposes: From defeated and driven out of the country was made unceremoniously triumph over pharaoh and excerpt from Egypt. That's why I think the term "exodus" for this is wrong.

Greetings, Lutz.


Sounds reasonable to me... (Finkelstein?) Smile

Cheers,

Eio
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
Yes, those two town names are the same due to the fact that "r" and "d" are sometimes interchangeable due to the "tapped" vocalization of "r". It is seen once or twice in ancient Egyptian group writing, as well--the writing of foreign names and places.


Thank you, Sidney, that was helpful.

SidneyF wrote:
And not, least, there is the y Haplogroup E1b1b, very common in Egypt. 30% of Jewish males are part of that group. Where did they get it unless many of those who left on an exodus were Egyptians [the "mixed multitude" of the Bible]? The entire exodus story centers around Moses and a new religion, a monotheistic one. Those who wished to be part of that or who considered undesirable because they were can have consisted of anybody, even persons who had roots in Egypt for more than 500 years.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/jewishe3bproject


So, again, to come back to Sarid/Shadud, at first glance, it looks like this discovery of Seti I period artifacts would tend to place the 'Exodus' after Sarid/Shadud was already established as a settlement. Thus, after Seti I?

Best,

Eio
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So, again, to come back to Sarid/Shadud, at first glance, it looks like this discovery of Seti I period artifacts would tend to place the 'Exodus' after Sarid/Shadud was already established as a settlement. Thus, after Seti I?


I can't see a connection. Canaan was settled before the exodus described in the Bible, as this book admits--or there would have been no reason to write about the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
Eio wrote:
Lutz wrote:
There was an "Exodus"? Cool

Well, I think there was something like it... Do you think it's possible that they could have made up the whole story out of nothing?

Now, it would not be, with safety, the only story in the Pentateuch...

I personally think that the authors of these 5 books in this story process memories from the time of the expulsion of the Hyksos (which were probably counted by them to their ancestors?) and modify this for their own political and ideological purposes: From defeated and driven out of the country was made unceremoniously triumph over pharaoh and excerpt from Egypt. That's why I think the term "exodus" for this is wrong.


I don't know why. The word just means "going out". What about Manetho? What "political and ideological" purpose did he have, as an Egyptian historian, to admit that the Egyptian could not defeat these particular people that HE associated with an exodus and that "Tethmosis" had to make a deal with them to get them to leave? So, evidently, Manetho was not thinking of those "Hyksos" that you refer to, the ones battled by the princes of the 17th Dynasty of Thebes. Later on, according to Manetho, some "polluted ones" were allowed to live in the ruined city of Avaris, whereupon these same people acquired some allies [which he claimed were persons who had previously left Egypt] and these caused so much trouble that the pharaoh had to go south for his own good.

Those Hyksos you have in mind were powerful. They ruled Egypt from the Delta as far south as Nefrusi, as Kamose claims on his stele. In the Book of Exodus, the narrative claims no particular power for the Children of Israel. Nor does it claim they defeated anybody in Egypt. It was God, who sent various plagues, who did that. But all ancient peoples referred to the powers of their gods. Nothing unusual there but it's obvious that some natural disasters weakened Egypt and the position of the king by the same token. Nothing so difficult to believe there.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were times in the era of the 18th Dynasty when things must have been really terrible in Egypt. As most of us live in places where smallpox has been eradicated, we don't realize what a horrible "plague" that was.

King Amenhotep II obviously died of the disease and I don't understand how anyone could doubt it. He either died by the 3rd or 4th day or had a light case because in subsequent days the disease can make a person look absolutely dreadful. Look at this photo--and I chose one of the least horrifying images online.


http://www.immunize.org/photos/smallpox-photos.asp


Other kings, like Thutmose II, whose skin is scarred all over by those lesions, obviously survived. So how powerful was an Egypt when the pharaoh, his court, his family and whole towns were under the siege of something like this?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SidneyF wrote:
Quote:
So, again, to come back to Sarid/Shadud, at first glance, it looks like this discovery of Seti I period artifacts would tend to place the 'Exodus' after Sarid/Shadud was already established as a settlement. Thus, after Seti I?


I can't see a connection. Canaan was settled before the exodus described in the Bible, as this book admits--or there would have been no reason to write about the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites.


Well, here we're dealing with one specific location that seems to be dated by Seti I period artifacts. The Bible says that Sarid was already there before the Exodus event. So, logically, if Sarid could indeed be dated to Seti I period, then the Exodus event happened after Seti I.

But of course there remains the possibility that Sarid was already there before Seti I. Is there any evidence of this?

Best,

Eio
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eio wrote:
SidneyF wrote:
Quote:
So, again, to come back to Sarid/Shadud, at first glance, it looks like this discovery of Seti I period artifacts would tend to place the 'Exodus' after Sarid/Shadud was already established as a settlement. Thus, after Seti I?


I can't see a connection. Canaan was settled before the exodus described in the Bible, as this book admits--or there would have been no reason to write about the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites.


Well, here we're dealing with one specific location that seems to be dated by Seti I period artifacts. The Bible says that Sarid was already there before the Exodus event. So, logically, if Sarid could indeed be dated to Seti I period, then the Exodus event happened after Seti I.

But of course there remains the possibility that Sarid was already there before Seti I. Is there any evidence of this?


I don't know but it seems to me only the burial can be dated to the reign of Seti I by that cartouche and not the settlement of Sarid. I am not involved in Biblical archaeology so don't know the archaeological findings on every tell. I'd have to research it just like you can.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A hereditary case of psoriasis (both Thutmose II and Hatshepsut had it), hardly can be diagnosed as smallpox.
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