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Egyptologists Discover Tomb of Royal Children
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Egyptologists Discover Tomb of Royal Children Reply with quote

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-04/uob-bei042814.php#.U153yeYQVYh.facebook
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Egyptologists Discover Tomb of Royal Children Reply with quote

Actually, Victor Loret had looked around KV40 many years ago but, since then, the tomb has been given short shrift. Goes to show one never knows what's hidden from view anywhere in the Valley.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Egyptian press release from "Ahram Online" (Nevine El-Aref, Monday April 28, 2014):

Almost 60 Royal Mummies Discovered in Egypt's Valley of the Kings
Swiss archaeological mission finds cache of 18th dynasty royal mummies on Luxor's West Bank

Greetings, Lutz.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgotten ... The data on the tomb from the Theban Mapping Project: KV 40 (Unknown)

Greetings, Lutz.
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Robson
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lutz wrote:
The Egyptian press release from "Ahram Online" (Nevine El-Aref, Monday April 28, 2014):

Almost 60 Royal Mummies Discovered in Egypt's Valley of the Kings
Swiss archaeological mission finds cache of 18th dynasty royal mummies on Luxor's West Bank

Greetings, Lutz.


Thank you, Lutz, for sharing.

Sometimes, the latin alphabetic transliterations from arabic made by Al Ahram sometimes stink. Thus I wonder, for example, if "Ta-Im-Wag-Is" wouldn't actually means Taemwadjsy...?


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Lutz
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robson wrote:
Thank you, Lutz, for sharing.

And also to Sydney F. ...

Robson wrote:
... I wonder, for example, if "Ta-Im-Wag-Is" wouldn't actually means Taemwadjsy...?

You mean the one from KV 46 - Tuja & Juja? Seems possible...

Some more links...

Tomb of the royal children in the Kings' Valley identified (Luxor Times - 28.04.2014)

Egyptologists identify tomb of royal children (Science Daily - 28.04.2014)

And without using a time machine ... Cool The Press Release of the University of Basel from Tomorrow, 29.04.2014:
Basel Egyptologists Identify Tomb of Royal Children

Greetings, Lutz.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at where KV40 is situated on the Theban Mapping Project site there are a number of other tombs that are listed as "unknown" and that have not been properly investigated. Most are regarded as being 18th Dynasty. The one that is identified (KV32) is that of Tia'a, mother of Tuthmosis IV. If the KV40 contents are proven to be from the time of Tuthmosis IV and Amenhotep III this particular section of the valley needs to be considered as a specific area for Royal wives and children, prior to the Valley of the Queens being established.

I'm pleased that a tomb has been found that may include a wealth of information for us to digest as the full findings are published.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's rather exciting, but not the first time names of royal children from the same period, on dockets, were discovered in like circumstances:

https://www.academia.edu/310105/A_Theban_Tomb_and_Its_Tenants
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to add "wooden" dockets, just like some I've seen from KV40.
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karnsculpture
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thankyou, very interesting paper. It does seem logical that the work done in the 21st Dynasty to dismantle the Valley and officially plunder its gold would have meant that these minor royals were treated in a similar way to the kings. Therefore, we can't really know what their original burials would have been like. However, it does seem possible that tombs were constructed for family members, particularly children and grandchildren of kings to be buried together, rather than GRW queens and kings who could afford their own tombs.

As we know from other sources, if Royal children reached adulthood and got married they were able to make their own arrangements, as any other nobles did (Tia and Tia for example). So I'll bet that these burials are just for unmarried princesses, or other children of the king who died before reaching adulthood.

In the paper, a daughter of a prince Si-atum is noted, interesting because we never seem to hear of King's brothers (is there even a title for this?) unless they died during the reign of their father.
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kylejustin
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i looked at the picture with the mummified head before i read the article, and it looks very strikingly like the women from the amarna royal family. she (?) had the same beautiful cheek bones and features that queen tiye and kv35yl have. will be fascinated to see if they do any DNA and anthropological studies.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
In the paper, a daughter of a prince Si-atum is noted, interesting because we never seem to hear of King's brothers (is there even a title for this?) unless they died during the reign of their father.


I have never seen anyone called "king's brother". Some people have even conjectured that, in ancient Egypt, when a man or boy became king he had all his brothers killed in the manner of some sultans of Turkey--in order to eliminate all other claimants. But, really, there is no direct evidence that this was the case. Others think the younger brothers lived but were never called "sn nsw". I think it might have been because, in a way, "sn" means "equal" and the pharaoh could have no true equal. However, why, then, couldn't the prince continue to be called "sA nsw", as before? But these don't show up much, either, and that is odd because some of the kings must have had very many sons. KV5, sometimes called the "tomb of the sons of Ramesses II"---why was it made so large and where, then, were the burials? The whole matter is mysterious.
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Thieuke
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:29 pm    Post subject: Prince versus king's brother Reply with quote

I guess a prince lost his title the moment a brother succeeded. The Egyptian line of succession preferably went from father to son, it never went to a grandson via a pre-deceased son. So prince meant the son of the Pharaoh, the moment another ruler succeeded the familyrelation changed and the title was discontinued.
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SidneyF
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Prince versus king's brother Reply with quote

Thieuke wrote:
I guess a prince lost his title the moment a brother succeeded. The Egyptian line of succession preferably went from father to son, it never went to a grandson via a pre-deceased son. So prince meant the son of the Pharaoh, the moment another ruler succeeded the familyrelation changed and the title was discontinued.


There were even some men called "sA nsw" who were never really the sons of the king as the names of their real parents were given. I recall there were a couple of these from the reign of Thutmose I. The "King's Son of Kush" was another special case. Perhaps that's why the real children of the pharaoh began to be styled "of his body". Certainly, the king's bodily children should have been first in the line of succession, males preferred, but it would seem that there were people who had claims to being royal and succeeded. Unless Horemheb was lying, he was a descendant of Thutmose III. Also, who were Smenkhkare and Ay? Did they really have royal blood [if it happens Smenkhkare is not the KV55 person--and, please, no revival of that topic]? If Ankhesenamun was alive, then why did Ay succeed at all? Well, he could and did--but was he the true successor? If Tutankhaten was the son of Akhenaten, why did Smenkhkare become king. There isn't anything at all calling him "king's son", whereas there is for Tut.
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Lutz
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

karnsculpture wrote:
... we never seem to hear of King's brothers (is there even a title for this?) unless they died during the reign of their father.

One mention of the title "sn nsw" (for a real biological brother) is on the funerary chapel of Ramesses I built by Seti I at Abydos. This was made after Ramesses I himself was dead, and it is likely that it showed the brother as well as other male and female relatives who were also dead. See Chapter 4 in Peter J. Brand : The Monuments of Seti I - Epigraphic, Historical and Art Historical Analysis. - Leiden : Brill, 2000 (P.J. Brand on EEF-List in July 2004).

Another instance of the title is the "king's father" and "king's brother" Tjahapimu / Chahapimu, who was the father of Nektanebos II / Nectanebo II and brother of Tachos / Teos from Dynasty 30. See Herman De Meulenaere : Un général du Delta, gouverneur de Haute Égypte. - In: CdE 61.122. - 1986. - pp. 203 - 210 (C. Bennett on EEF-List in July 2004).

If I remember correctly, there are still one or two examples from the end of the Middle Kingdom / the Second Intermediate Period. But unfortunately I can not find the evidence at the moment.

Greetings, Lutz.
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